Ukraine

[riggerrob 643]

I helped package up the last few CF-104 that the CAF sent to Turkey near the end of the Cold War. One of my (technician) colleagues had previously served in the Canadian Army's United Nations Mission to Cyprus. He had a low opinion of Turks, so used to spray-paint a Greek flag inside very panel before he screwed it shut. Years later, Turkish technicians were still finding little Greek flags inside their second-hand CF-104s.

Hah!

Hah!

[yoink 321]

On 6/22/2022 at 8:14 AM, JoeWeber said:

 Odd's are we'll get our asses kicked again.

That’s the smart money bet, and this time the bad guys k ow what works and what doesn’t.

I honestly think there’s a chance that the next presidency might be the end of the US as a legitimate democracy.

Edited June 24, 2022 by yoink

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

6 hours ago, yoink said:

That’s the smart money bet, and this time the bad guys k ow what works and what doesn’t.

I honestly think there’s a chance that the next presidency might be the end of the US as a legitimate democracy.

In most cases, the historians decide much later when the 'end' actually happened.

In most cases, the 'end' happened without the people who were actually there realizing it.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if historians in the future declare that the 'end of American democracy' happened at some point prior to our present.

When McConnel abdicated his duty to hold hearings for Garland's SC appointment is one possibility.
There are others.

[wmw999 2,515]

39 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

In most cases, the historians decide much later when the 'end' actually happened.

In most cases, the 'end' happened without the people who were actually there realizing it.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if historians in the future declare that the 'end of American democracy' happened at some point prior to our present.

When McConnel abdicated his duty to hold hearings for Garland's SC appointment is one possibility.
There are others.

They say that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think some folks are OK with being corrupted...

That said, we've been too static, and static systems become easier to game. Maybe it is time for a good revolution.

Wendy P.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

3 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

They say that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think some folks are OK with being corrupted...

That said, we've been too static, and static systems become easier to game. Maybe it is time for a good revolution.

Wendy P.

Well, Jefferson is quoted as saying "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants."

It comes from a letter to the son of John Adams.

https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/tree-liberty-quotation

 

It has a very interesting and insightful sentence about the idea of the 'big lie'.

 

Quote

Wonderful is the effect of impudent and persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them,

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

34 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

They say that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think some folks are OK with being corrupted...

That said, we've been too static, and static systems become easier to game. Maybe it is time for a good revolution.

Wendy P.

Ron?...Ron?

[ryoder 1,590]

39 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

They say that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think some folks are OK with being corrupted...

That said, we've been too static, and static systems become easier to game. Maybe it is time for a good revolution.

Wendy P.

Being  a baby boomer, I participated in the sexual revolution. Does that count?

[Phil1111 1,149]

17 hours ago, riggerrob said:

I helped package up the last few CF-104 that the CAF sent to Turkey near the end of the Cold War. One of my (technician) colleagues had previously served in the Canadian Army's United Nations Mission to Cyprus. He had a low opinion of Turks, so used to spray-paint a Greek flag inside very panel before he screwed it shut. Years later, Turkish technicians were still finding little Greek flags inside their second-hand CF-104s.

Hah!

Hah!

F*&k Turkey. Why would any NATO member want to come to the defense of that POS country? Your colleague knew what he was talking about.

"Turkey’s far-right ruling AKP party is looking to use Ankara’s NATO membership to blackmail the defensive pact into catering to Ankara’s orders. Turkey has long used its membership of NATO as a blank check for human-rights abuses and invasions, often running counter to the values of NATO."

Turkey Becomes Haven for Superyachts Owned by Sanctioned Russian Oligarchs

"Transparency International, which monitors global corruption, last week reported that Turkey had fallen to 96th of 180 countries in its Corruption Perceptions Index, scoring 38 out of 100 on a scale where a zero score indicates a highly corrupt state. The global average is 43."

"Turkey will continue to buy Russian oil and hopes sanctions on Iran are lifted, bringing additional supplies to meet global demand, Energy Minister Alparslan Bayraktar said on Tuesday....Bayraktar said Turkey could not easily replace its Russian oil supply from elsewhere, adding "they have been old, reliable suppliers".

Its time to kick Turkey to the curb.

 

[jakee 1,557]

2 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if historians in the future declare that the 'end of American democracy' happened at some point prior to our present.

When McConnel abdicated his duty to hold hearings for Garland's SC appointment is one possibility.
There are others.

I think you’ve been on the long slow slide ever since the Justice Department decided Presidents couldn’t be prosecuted.

[kallend 2,103]

16 hours ago, jakee said:

I think you’ve been on the long slow slide ever since the Justice Department decided Presidents couldn’t be prosecuted.

Earlier than that.  Creation of the Electoral College comes to mind.

[riggerrob 643]

On 6/24/2022 at 7:00 AM, Phil1111 said:

F*&k Turkey. Why would any NATO member want to come to the defense of that POS country? Your colleague knew what he was talking about.

"Turkey’s far-right ruling AKP party is looking to use Ankara’s NATO membership to blackmail the defensive pact into catering to Ankara’s orders. Turkey has long used its membership of NATO as a blank check for human-rights abuses and invasions, often running counter to the values of NATO."

Turkey Becomes Haven for Superyachts Owned by Sanctioned Russian Oligarchs

"Transparency International, which monitors global corruption, last week reported that Turkey had fallen to 96th of 180 countries in its Corruption Perceptions Index, scoring 38 out of 100 on a scale where a zero score indicates a highly corrupt state. The global average is 43."

"Turkey will continue to buy Russian oil and hopes sanctions on Iran are lifted, bringing additional supplies to meet global demand, Energy Minister Alparslan Bayraktar said on Tuesday....Bayraktar said Turkey could not easily replace its Russian oil supply from elsewhere, adding "they have been old, reliable suppliers".

Its time to kick Turkey to the curb.

 

Turkey was a valuable trip-wire during the Cold War. Since Turkey and Norway were the only NATO countries bordering the USSR, they were handy for listening in on Soviet radio traffic.

Remember that the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis was sparked by the recent forward-positioning of NATO (American-made and controlled) nuclear missiles in Turkey and Spain. Since the USSR did not enjoy having NATO nukes that close to their border, Soviets responded by forward-positioning nukes in recently-communized Cuba. NATO and the USA pushed second-hand weapons on Turkey to use them as cannon-fodder in case the Soviets wanted to finish invading Western Europe.

On the con side, Turkey is the only Muslim-majority nation in NATO or the EU and Turkey has always had its own distinct foreign policies. I suspect that Turkish foreign policy is based upon their glory days during the height of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, when (1683) they conquered all the way to the gates of Vienna (old, German-speaking Holy Roman Empire).

The United Nations and NATO have had to expend considerable effort to prevent Turkey and Greece from going to war over ancient border disputes in Cyprus, the former Yugoslavia, etc. We suspect that plenty of back-room negotiations (NATO, EU, UN, etc.) will never be made public.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, riggerrob said:

Turkey was a valuable trip-wire during the Cold War. Since Turkey and Norway were the only NATO countries bordering the USSR, they were handy for listening in on Soviet radio traffic....

The United Nations and NATO have had to expend considerable effort to prevent Turkey and Greece from going to war over ancient border disputes in Cyprus, the former Yugoslavia, etc. We suspect that plenty of back-room negotiations (NATO, EU, UN, etc.) will never be made public.

Turkey used to have a hope under the guidelines of secularism laid out by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.  Then the Muslim populist Erdogan showed up. He is educated in Islamic theology and its put to good use today. "In May, Turkey’s Consumer Price Index, CPI, was 73.5 per cent higher compared to the same month last year." With a 11.3% unemployment rate.

 

[ryoder 1,590]

NPR: Turkey has dropped its objections to Finland and Sweden joining NATO

[JoeWeber 2,810]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

NPR: Turkey has dropped its objections to Finland and Sweden joining NATO

The quid pro quo is that both countries now must offer ear candling in all public spaces.

[Phil1111 1,149]

9 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

The quid pro quo is that Turkey gets new F-16s and new block 70 upgrade kits.

FIFY

[JoeWeber 2,810]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

FIFY

That's the big win for our NATO good buddies in the east. They all get rid of their old Soviet crap and are now on speed dial for Western, mostly US, weapons. They're the real winners in this war.

[Phil1111 1,149]

5 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

That's the big win for our NATO good buddies in the east. They all get rid of their old Soviet crap and are now on speed dial for Western, mostly US, weapons. They're the real winners in this war.

Do you mean that US defense workers, shareholders, etc. will win off of Ukrainian blood? Profit off of dead Ukrainian  women and children?

Like Marjorie Taylor Greene Bought Defense Stock Day Before Slamming 'Profitable' War

[JoeWeber 2,810]

29 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Do you mean that US defense workers, shareholders, etc. will win off of Ukrainian blood? Profit off of dead Ukrainian  women and children?

Like Marjorie Taylor Greene Bought Defense Stock Day Before Slamming 'Profitable' War

Well, yes, that's the sad reality. But so will the French, Germans and any other NATO country citizens whose nation produces modern weapons of war. 

[Phil1111 1,149]

Putin is putting the boots to criticism of his war. Between Russia and China. This is what happens when autocratic leaders weasel into power.

"A court in Moscow on Friday sentenced an opposition lawmaker to seven years in prison for denouncing Russia’s war in Ukraine, handing down the first real prison term for what the government made a crime shortly after the invasion."

[gowlerk 2,245]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

Putin is putting the boots to criticism of his war. Between Russia and China. This is what happens when autocratic leaders weasel into power.

"A court in Moscow on Friday sentenced an opposition lawmaker to seven years in prison for denouncing Russia’s war in Ukraine, handing down the first real prison term for what the government made a crime shortly after the invasion."

Most nations do this in times of war. Look up the sedition act of 1918 for a US example. Controlling and limiting opposition is often seen as a patriotic duty. I would be willing to bet that most Russians support that law.

[riggerrob 643]

For months, I have been wondering why Mr. Poutine has been willing to suffer such heavy losses of Russian soldiers in Ukraine.

I finally found a 500 year old explanation. ... or is this explanation 1,000 years old? ... or is it 3,000 years old?

After reading a bunch of books written by Prof. Brian M. Fagan about how climate change forces human evolution, I tried to apply the Asian horse-archer style of warfare to the current war in Ukraine.

Prof. Fagan describes the grassy steppes as the "lungs of Asia" expanding during moist years and contracting during dry years. Consider the plight of a nomadic horse-archer Cossack, Kazar, Scythian, Tajik, Turkmen, Uzbek, Tajik, Tatar, Turkmen, etc. tribe roaming the steppes. They were spread thin on the steppes because grass was too thin to feed their flocks for more than a week or two in any single pasture. They were also unable to store significant amounts of food because of the constant need to migrate to greener pastures. During moist years, their flocks of sheep, cattle and horses expand. Most of their children survive to adulthood and only a fewer elders die every year.

BUT come a dry year and cattle die in the fields, Fewer children survive to adulthood and your elders died off too early. The simplest solution is rustling a few cattle from a neighboring tribe. After a few more drought years, you decide to conquer the neighboring tribe. With insufficient food to feed you own tribe over the coming winter, you have zero food available to feed prisoners of war, so the men get slaughtered, the women taken as sex slaves and children are sold into slavery. If slave markets are too far away to march slaves ... those slaves get slaughtered, again because you cannot afford to feed them over the coming winter.

Casualties in battle can also solve a couple of demographic and political problems within your own tribe. The boldest and dumbest young men will die in battle "thinning the herd" your tribe of its weakest males. This reduce pressure on limited food reserves and eliminates a few political rivals who are ambitious, but lack the skills to lead your tribe int he long run.

Also consider that one reason that you were able to over-run the neighboring tribe is that they were starving before you. Starving people tend to suffer more from diseases like fleas, lice, poxes, flues. dysentery, etc. So the simplest way to prevent your tribe from contracting those diseases is to burn down the houses of the conquered.

Burning out diseases also provides one possible explanation of why the Russian Army is willing to bomb Mariupol into rumble on their way to capturing the city.

Finally, Russians have never learned how to make conquered people love them, so Russians settle for making conquered peoples fear them.

[JoeWeber 2,810]

4 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

For months, I have been wondering why Mr. Poutine has been willing to suffer such heavy losses of Russian soldiers in Ukraine.

I finally found a 500 year old explanation. ... or is this explanation 1,000 years old? ... or is it 3,000 years old?

After reading a bunch of books written by Prof. Brian M. Fagan about how climate change forces human evolution, I tried to apply the Asian horse-archer style of warfare to the current war in Ukraine.

Prof. Fagan describes the grassy steppes as the "lungs of Asia" expanding during moist years and contracting during dry years. Consider the plight of a nomadic horse-archer Cossack, Kazar, Scythian, Tajik, Turkmen, Uzbek, Tajik, Tatar, Turkmen, etc. tribe roaming the steppes. They were spread thin on the steppes because grass was too thin to feed their flocks for more than a week or two in any single pasture. They were also unable to store significant amounts of food because of the constant need to migrate to greener pastures. During moist years, their flocks of sheep, cattle and horses expand. Most of their children survive to adulthood and only a fewer elders die every year.

BUT come a dry year and cattle die in the fields, Fewer children survive to adulthood and your elders died off too early. The simplest solution is rustling a few cattle from a neighboring tribe. After a few more drought years, you decide to conquer the neighboring tribe. With insufficient food to feed you own tribe over the coming winter, you have zero food available to feed prisoners of war, so the men get slaughtered, the women taken as sex slaves and children are sold into slavery. If slave markets are too far away to march slaves ... those slaves get slaughtered, again because you cannot afford to feed them over the coming winter.

Casualties in battle can also solve a couple of demographic and political problems within your own tribe. The boldest and dumbest young men will die in battle "thinning the herd" your tribe of its weakest males. This reduce pressure on limited food reserves and eliminates a few political rivals who are ambitious, but lack the skills to lead your tribe int he long run.

Also consider that one reason that you were able to over-run the neighboring tribe is that they were starving before you. Starving people tend to suffer more from diseases like fleas, lice, poxes, flues. dysentery, etc. So the simplest way to prevent your tribe from contracting those diseases is to burn down the houses of the conquered.

Burning out diseases also provides one possible explanation of why the Russian Army is willing to bomb Mariupol into rumble on their way to capturing the city.

Finally, Russians have never learned how to make conquered people love them, so Russians settle for making conquered peoples fear them.

50 or even 100 thousand out of 140 million will leave a lot of dumb people remaining.

[jakee 1,557]

19 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

For months, I have been wondering why Mr. Poutine has been willing to suffer such heavy losses of Russian soldiers in Ukraine.

Every nation was until the media evolved to the extent that it could show the populace in real time what was actually happening. Since Putin has near complete control over the media he doesn't have to worry anywhere near as much about that.

In addition Russia has always been a country where life is cheap and the general population is nothing more than a resource to be used. They went almost directly from being ground under the heel of the Tzars, to the barbarity of the cvil wars, to the iron grip of Lenin and the insanity of Stalin, and it only got a little better than that before the rise of the Mafia state under Boris Yeltsin and his protege Putin.

[riggerrob 643]

Good point dear Jakee,

I doubt if life changed much for the average Russian peasant whether they were ruled by: the Tzar or Lenin or Stalin or Yeltsin or Mr. Poutine.

[Phil1111 1,149]

We all wait with anticipation if Joe won the auction for the Russian superyacht.

One of the first Russian yachts to be seized arising from sanctions on Russia.

"A £65m superyacht owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch has attracted 63 bids at auction in Gibraltar in the first sale of an oligarch’s assets since Putin invaded Ukraine in February.

The 72.5-metre Axioma, was seized from steel billionaire Dmitry Pumpyansky in March following sanctions by the UK, EU and the US."