Ukraine

[wmw999 2,457]

34 minutes ago, Slim King said:

As far as them not being trained for combat didn't I see Zelenski give thousands of guns to the untrained citizens of western Ukraine

To me, there’s a difference between volunteering without qualifications for something like defending your homeland, and being conscripted to fight a war you have no direct interest in. Imagine if during Iraq (remember the “go about your business” approach) Bush had restarted the draft 

Wendy P. 

[billvon 3,006]

 

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

Conscripting our children into war is a horrible thing. After the Viet Nam fiasco no one wanted the government to have the ability to force our sons and daughters to kill others. As far as them not being trained for combat didn't I see Zelenski give thousands of guns to the untrained citizens of western Ukraine?

Consider three cases.

Case one - you join the military, are trained, and serve for a few years. Then a war starts.  You fight in the war, do well and eventually retire.

Case two - your country is invaded.  You volunteer to serve, are trained quickly, given weapons and armor, and start fighting.

Case three - your country invades another country.   It goes poorly.   Your son is conscripted, is not trained, and is put in the field with antique weapons that don't work.

Which ones are you OK with?

 

[jakee 1,500]

6 hours ago, Slim King said:

As far as them not being trained for combat didn't I see Zelenski give thousands of guns to the untrained citizens of western Ukraine? Were they trained? 

Yes. They were/are much better trained than the Russian conscripts.

[Phil1111 1,149]

11 hours ago, wmw999 said:

To me, there’s a difference between volunteering without qualifications for something like defending your homeland, and being conscripted to fight a war you have no direct interest in. Imagine if during Iraq (remember the “go about your business” approach) Bush had restarted the draft 

Wendy P. 

Which also goes directly to motivation for the fight.

[kallend 2,027]

 

The Home Guard, England, 1940.  Defending your own land is quite different from being part of an army of invasion. 

[kallend 2,027]

Sword Beach, June 6, 1944

Being part of an army of invasion is quite different from defending your own home:

[jakee 1,500]

22 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Why isn't Ukraine publishing numbers of their losses? I know why. Because they don't want you to know how many kids they've been killing for financial gain. The same thing happened in the Viet nam war ... They will lie lie lie lie until they have lost....

Right, nothing to do with not wanting to turn the entire country over to the Russian death squads.

Whose financial gain, and what evidence are you seeing?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

56 minutes ago, jakee said:

Right, nothing to do with not wanting to turn the entire country over to the Russian death squads.

Whose financial gain, and what evidence are you seeing?

You ask about financial gain, he throws 'Nazi tattoos' at you.

You don't really expect a straight answer to your question, do you?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

8 minutes ago, Slim King said:

So why do you support these nazi's who killed looted and robbed 15,000 of their fellow Ukranians over the last 8 years??

 

I don't. 

Why do you lie about stuff?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Just now, Slim King said:

I'm telling the truth. You support the nazi's in Ukraine. Russia has killed and captured thousands of these misled children with many dying on both sides .. Where are the numbers of Ukraine fatalities?

Why do you keep lying?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Just now, Slim King said:

Do you support the Ukraine military? Yes or No.

Yes, I support Zelinsky and the Ukrainian military. The claim that they are Nazi's is Russian propaganda. The Azov battalion has some far right wing idiots in it. They don't represent the entire military.
Do you support the idea that the Russians summarily executed anyone with a tattoo they didn't like?

Would you have supported the governor of Florida if he was a Democrat?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

36 minutes ago, Slim King said:

The Azov Battalion is Neo Nazi .... Biden has given them Billions of Dollars. The two video's I shared prove that people were aware of this long before Russia invaded. I have no idea what the Russians did with these poor misled kids. Neither do you. You need to come to grips with the fact that the Ukraine army has a battalion of Neo-nazi's.... I provided the evidence.

If it turns out there are Nazis in the Florida National Guard will you stop supporting DeSantis who heads up the Florida National Guard?

[jakee 1,500]

2 hours ago, Slim King said:

What about the 15,000 Russian speaking Ukranians that Ukraine has killed in the last 8 years? 

I’d rather you backed up the first assertion with evidence before throwing out a second unsourced assertion.

[billvon 3,006]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Why do you keep lying?

That's how he gets paid.

[jakee 1,500]

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

You brought up DEATH SQUADS and I proved you support the kind in the picture I've provided.

Showing a picture of a Ukrainian neo nazi does not prove either that there were Ukrainian deaths quads or that I would support them if there were.
 

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

These nazi's killed 15,000 and looted their wealth and property. So YES .. Massive financial gain by Ukraine against their own people.

I asked for evidence. “YES” is not evidence.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

The Azov Battalion is Neo Nazi .... Biden has given them Billions of Dollars. The two video's I shared prove that people were aware of this long before Russia invaded. I have no idea what the Russians did with these poor misled kids. Neither do you. You need to come to grips with the fact that the Ukraine army has a battalion of Neo-nazi's.... I provided the evidence.

The Azov Battalion is right-wing. Kinda like the Wagner Group.

The Azov's have Nazis in it. That doesn't make the Azovs Nazi any more than it makes the Republicans Nazi because they have Nazis in them.

The US government (not just Biden) gave the Ukrainians Billions of dollars worth of military equipment. I don't know how much of that went to the Azov (neither do you) but it certainly wasn't ALL of it. Pretending that it was is pretty foolish. 

 

And lots of people know what the Russians did to prisoners. There were witnesses. There were survivors. War crimes committed by the Russians have been pretty well documented.
Pretending that a fairly small (but still too many) neo-Nazis are the entire Azov battalion is pretty foolish.

Not surprising, considering how blatantly you spread Russian propaganda, but still foolish.
 

[Phil1111 1,149]

2 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Why do you keep lying?

 

1 hour ago, billvon said:

That's how he gets paid.

One ruble for each engaged westerner.

[billvon 3,006]

2 hours ago, Slim King said:

The Azov Battalion is Neo Nazi .... Biden has given them Billions of Dollars

Ruh-roh!  Looks like there are a lot of Nazis in Florida, and DeSantis just gave THEM money!  And he hasn't even denounced them, just keeps writing them checks!

https://people.com/politics/florida-governor-ron-desantis-has-not-denounced-neo-nazi-supporters/

https://www.adl.org/blog/following-demonstration-three-neo-nazis-charged-in-florida-assault

Eagerly awaiting your explanation of how that's just fine.

[jakee 1,500]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The US government (not just Biden) gave the Ukrainians Billions of dollars worth of military equipment. I don't know how much of that went to the Azov (neither do you) but it certainly wasn't ALL of it. Pretending that it was is pretty foolish. 

The majority of the Azov regiment including most of its commanders were stationed in Mariupol during the invasion and ended up in the Azovstal steelworks where they were either killed, or captured after the eventual surrender. Scores more died in Russian prisons, a few hundred (I think mostly wounded) were swapped for Russian POWs and many remain captive. The idea that this particular organisation is getting rich off a war they provoked is a straight up denial of reality.

 

It's also worth noting (not to Slim but to anyone who's interested in nuance and analysis) that the rise of the original far-right nationalist Azov gang has a lot to do with Russia's hostility towards, and infiltration of Ukraine that's been going on for decades. For a long time prior to the 2014 Crimea and Donbas annexations Russia had been conducting a long campaign of espionage, bribery, election interference and all the other things they're actually quite good at throughout Ukraine, right up to the President. They installed or turned pro-Russian officials wherever they could, and sowed corruption and confusion everywhere else. The result was that during that first wave of land grabs Ukraine was utterly unable to defend itself, its official armed forces were a hopeless mess. This is what opens the door for nationalist militias to form and step into the gap, and quite frankly Ukraine was probably in a 'beggars can't be choosers' situation at that moment in time. But that was 8 years ago, and since being absorbed into Ukraine's national defence structure the organisation is simply not what it used to be, even if it does still have some neo-nazis in it (show me an army that doesn't).

 

PS: This is also why the Republicans' stupid conspiracy theory about Biden and the 'Burisma prosecutor' is not just wrong but actively dangerous. Biden carried out official State Department policy - supported and encouraged by the EU - in forcing the removal of a chief prosecutor who was blocking investigations into the widespread corruption that was crippling the nation. Replacing him with someone who would actually do his job is an integral part of why Ukraine's ability to organise and defend itself has been so much better this time around.

[Phil1111 1,149]

55 minutes ago, billvon said:

Ruh-roh!  Looks like there are a lot of Nazis in Florida, and DeSantis just gave THEM money!  And he hasn't even denounced them, just keeps writing them checks!

https://people.com/politics/florida-governor-ron-desantis-has-not-denounced-neo-nazi-supporters/

https://www.adl.org/blog/following-demonstration-three-neo-nazis-charged-in-florida-assault

Eagerly awaiting your explanation of how that's just fine.

The right will just say there are some fine Nazis among them. So they shouldn't all be blamed.

Here is an example of the garbage drivel from the right. I found it on a gun forum.

"Secret talks between Russia and Germany to resolve their Nord Stream 1 and 2 issues had to be averted at any cost...

Diplomatic sources confirm that Berlin and Moscow were involved in a secret negotiation to solve both the NS and NS2 issues. So they had to be stopped – no holds barred. Geopolitically, the entity that had the motive to halt a deal holds anathema a possible alliance in the horizon between Germany, Russia, and China.

The much-quoted NATO Article 5 – ‘an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us’ – obviously does not say anything about a NATO-on-NATO attack. After the pipeline punctures, NATO issued a meek statement “believing” what happened was sabotage and will “respond” to any deliberate attack on its critical infrastructure. NS and NS2, incidentally, are not part of NATO’s infrastructure.

Good read:"  - a link to the originating story on "zerohedge"

So when people wonder where the competition to "Truthsocial" comes from its gun and hunting forums.

[jakee 1,500]

11 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

"Secret talks between Russia and Germany to resolve their Nord Stream 1 and 2 issues had to be averted at any cost...

Diplomatic sources confirm that Berlin and Moscow were involved in a secret negotiation to solve both the NS and NS2 issues. So they had to be stopped – no holds barred. Geopolitically, the entity that had the motive to halt a deal holds anathema a possible alliance in the horizon between Germany, Russia, and China.

Gimme some dressing with that word salad would ya? 

 

The 'diplomatic sources' bit reminds me of Ron's old 'special forces backchannel' claims. As if there was this group of retired grunts still being trusted with current top secret info despite the fact they would immediately spread every bit of it all over the internet

[wmw999 2,457]

Just awhile ago you said something else was the stupidest thing you ever heard (not just today, I assume). Now this is the stupidest thing you’ve heard all day. You could go find some forum where people give you the slack-jawed respect and awe you’re hoping for

Wendy P. 

[lippy 918]

38 minutes ago, Slim King said:

That just the stupidest thing I've heard today. 

Proof-positive that you don't re-read your posts out loud.

[jakee 1,500]

They want peace and for Ukraine to be Ukraine. Arguing that you either submit to being invaded and annexed by Russia and agree to give up future means of self defence against another hostile invasion or  you’re a pro war profiteering criminal is the stupidest thing I’ve read today.

I mean, I’ve honestly only just woken up, but I have already seen the Herschel Walker story. 

[jakee 1,500]

9 hours ago, Slim King said:

That just the stupidest thing I've heard today. DeSantis never gave Neo-nazis money .. Show some proof.

I’ve been asking you for proof and all you offered was “YES”.