Ukraine

[riggerrob 643]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:54 AM, Slim King said:

The Tattoo is a PICTURE OF HITLER ... Not a nordic Rune. I'm tired of your dissinformation.

The only published photo of an "Adolf Hitler" tattoo to date.

We might believe your propaganda if you publish a few dozen more "nazi" tattos.

As an aside, the Azov Battalion held out for so long at the Azovstal plant because they knew that they would be beaten or killed if they surrendered to Russian invaders.

One female refugee - from Mariupol - explained (to Western journalists) that she escaped along a "humanitarian corridor" with multiple check points where she was repeatedly strip-searched. She said that the scariest part was never knowing at which check=point she would be marched into the woods and raped or shot.

This not exclusively a Ukrainian problem, nor is it a Second-World problem. Similar beatings awaited Mohawks during the Oka Crisis in Canada during 1990. Mohawks held out for so long because they knew that if they surrendered to Quebec Provincial Police, they would be beaten. That is why Mohawks held out until they could surrender to the Canadian Army (specifically the VanDoos infantry regiment). Mohawks knew that increased press coverage and the more professional attitudes of soldiers would mean fewer beatings.

[riggerrob 643]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:47 PM, wmw999 said:

The problem is you want to be the one defining who Nazis are. Do you include the Russian Wagner Group soldiers as cavalierly as you include the entire Ukrainian army?

Wendy P.

Eventually right-wingers stray so far that they complete the circle and look like hard-core (Russian style) communists.

Meanwhile the most fanatical of left-wingers complete the circle and start to act like (Nazi style) fascists.

The average observer cannot tell the difference. If you watch long enough, it all looks like a big circle. ... perhaps a big wave. History may not repeat itself, but it often ryhms.

Add to that the notion that poorly-disciplined soldiers on both sides tend to be thugs who rape, loot, pillage, stampede and burn with little knowledge of politics.

[murps2000 86]

5 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Eventually right-wingers stray so far that they complete the circle and look like hard-core (Russian style) communists.

Meanwhile the most fanatical of left-wingers complete the circle and start to act like (Nazi style) fascists.

The average observer cannot tell the difference. If you watch long enough, it all looks like a big circle. ... perhaps a big wave. History may not repeat itself, but it often ryhms.

Add to that the notion that poorly-disciplined soldiers on both sides tend to be thugs who rape, loot, pillage, stampede and burn with little knowledge of politics.

I’m not seeing both sides raping, looting or pillaging in this conflict. If the Ukrainians are doing it I’ve yet to see it reported. With each new bit of territory recaptured from the Russians, however, I’m seeing plenty of evidence of all of that and worse. 

[Phil1111 1,149]

20 minutes ago, murps2000 said:

I’m not seeing both sides raping, looting or pillaging in this conflict. If the Ukrainians are doing it I’ve yet to see it reported. With each new bit of territory recaptured from the Russians, however, I’m seeing plenty of evidence of all of that and worse. 

I think his point is "poorly-disciplined soldiers". While Ukrainians seem to have very good discipline. Including the members of the Azov regiment.who have no record of such conduct.

Russians seem to almost have those traits as a part of their training.Seem to act as if license or orders to those effects were given. Worse IMO is the use of artillery on cities, airstrikes on civilians, missile attacks on civilians.

[wmw999 2,459]

You didn’t answer my question about the Wagner Group. Are you scared of addressing the issue, or will you just slap a little paint on it and say that Russians harboring hateful thoughts is better than Ukrainians harboring them? Probably it’s just like how “conservatives” being actual admitted Nazis is OK for (whatever) while BLM and critical race theory are serious threats to America

Wendy P. 

[ryoder 1,590]

6 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Add to that the notion that poorly-disciplined soldiers on both sides tend to be thugs who rape, loot, pillage, stampede and burn with little knowledge of politics.

I cannot believe a soldier would be inclined to do raping/looting/pillaging/stampeding when the battlefield is in his own country.

[Phil1111 1,149]

23 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I cannot believe a soldier would be inclined to do raping/looting/pillaging/stampeding when the battlefield is in his own country.

Well there is that.

Presumably the areas of the four Ukrainian oblasts have areas where their exists pro Russian supporters. Areas to which locals have volunteered, been drafted and been forced to fight against the Ukrainian army. So there is the possibility that Ukrainian regulars and perhaps the Azov regiment. Would act irregularly to punish, rape, etc. those locals for their lack of loyalty. For their support of Russia.

Having said that there have been no credible reports of any such conduct. There has been reports that Ukrainian agents acted to attempt to assassinate Aleksandr Dugin, They failed and instead killed his daughter.

This all falls into the area of discipline. Russians seem to lack it.

[wmw999 2,459]

2 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Why not just end it all?                                          

Well, Putin is the one threatening to use nukes. And I’m still curious as to why it’s OK for Russia to invade Ukraine, but not OK for Ukraine to defend itself.

Wendy P. 

[murps2000 86]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

I think his point is "poorly-disciplined soldiers". While Ukrainians seem to have very good discipline. Including the members of the Azov regiment.who have no record of such conduct.

Russians seem to almost have those traits as a part of their training.Seem to act as if license or orders to those effects were given. Worse IMO is the use of artillery on cities, airstrikes on civilians, missile attacks on civilians.

https://www.newsweek.com/photos-evidence-russian-torture-room-ukraine-kharkiv-region-1748952?amp=1

Russian soldiers certainly seem to be poorly disciplined in battlefield tactics lately, but this has nothing to do with discipline. Definitely not a “win their hearts and minds” strategy.

[obelixtim 150]

On 10/7/2022 at 8:26 AM, riggerrob said:

The only published photo of an "Adolf Hitler" tattoo to date.

We might believe your propaganda if you publish a few dozen more "nazi" tattos.

As an aside, the Azov Battalion held out for so long at the Azovstal plant because they knew that they would be beaten or killed if they surrendered to Russian invaders.

One female refugee - from Mariupol - explained (to Western journalists) that she escaped along a "humanitarian corridor" with multiple check points where she was repeatedly strip-searched. She said that the scariest part was never knowing at which check=point she would be marched into the woods and raped or shot.

This not exclusively a Ukrainian problem, nor is it a Second-World problem. Similar beatings awaited Mohawks during the Oka Crisis in Canada during 1990. Mohawks held out for so long because they knew that if they surrendered to Quebec Provincial Police, they would be beaten. That is why Mohawks held out until they could surrender to the Canadian Army (specifically the VanDoos infantry regiment). Mohawks knew that increased press coverage and the more professional attitudes of soldiers would mean fewer beatings.

A close up picture of a Hitler tattoo. No evidence that it is actually displayed by a Ukranian POW. You could probably find many tattoos like that on the internet. Not sure if it is credible coming from the Russians. They wouldn't fake a picture for propaganda purposes would they?

[jakee 1,500]

3 hours ago, Slim King said:

Ukrainian Azovs have killed about 15,0000 of their fellow countrymen             over the last 8 years. Not sure how many they raped. That's why they feared being captured. Both sides are making a sinful amount of money over these dead bodies.

And again, the evidence you have for any of that apart from ‘YES’?

 

[lippy 918]

5 hours ago, jakee said:

And again, the evidence you have for any of that apart from ‘YES’?

 

You know better than that by now. 

[Phil1111 1,149]

6 hours ago, jakee said:

And again, the evidence you have for any of that apart from ‘YES’?

 

"Ukrainian Azovs have killed about 15,0000 of their fellow countrymen over the last 8 years." Thanks to SC software i don't have to waste my time looking at Troll droppings like that.

The defense of the steel mill by the Azov battalion was heralded in Ukraine as heroic. Zelenskyy stated that getting the return of his "brave warriors" from POW status was a priority.

Yet trolling Russian propaganda is rewarded by some young fish that rise to the bait.

In other news hurrah to Ukrainian SEALs who finally got around to the Kerch bridge. "Part of the crossing, the sole bridge linking the Crimean Peninsula with Russia, collapsed into the sea." A train on the bridge is burning and since its likely carrying ammunition. Its looking even better. What a great happy 70th birthday present for Slim's buddy Putin.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Phil1111

[ryoder 1,590]

19 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

In other news hurrah to Ukrainian SEALs who finally got around to the Kerch bridge.

I had begun to wonder if Ukraine was leaving it standing just so the Russians could use it to retreat faster.

[jakee 1,500]

9 hours ago, obelixtim said:

A close up picture of a Hitler tattoo. No evidence that it is actually displayed by a Ukranian POW. You could probably find many tattoos like that on the internet. Not sure if it is credible coming from the Russians. They wouldn't fake a picture for propaganda purposes would they?

The other thing here is the deflected attention from Russia’s own government. The Nobel Peace Prize was awarded this year in part to an organisation banned by the Kremlin who research and document atrocities throughout the history of the USSR. They were shut down because Putin’s Make Russia Great Again propaganda actively glorifies Josef Stalin and casts Putin as his spiritual successor. Stalin, a dictator and amoral mass murderer of his own people on an even greater scale than Hitler. 
 

So even if the above tattoo is true, on the Ukrainian side you have at worst a few Hitler loving soldiers in a nation currently governed by a Jewish man who won a free and fair election. On the Russian side you have a fascist dictator whose entire government worships Stalin - a man of equal evil to Hitler’s own.

So who should be ‘liberating’ who?

[JoeWeber 2,736]

12 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I had begun to wonder if Ukraine was leaving it standing just so the Russians could use it to retreat faster.

I'm thinking with all of those fuel tankers waiting their turn to burn it's a matter of time before the railway side is also in the drink.

 

[gowlerk 2,216]

16 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I had begun to wonder if Ukraine was leaving it standing just so the Russians could use it to retreat faster.

Well it's actually two bridges. One for a highway and one for train tracks. So they took out the supply bridge and left the retreat bridge.

[ryoder 1,590]

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Well it's actually two bridges. One for a highway and one for train tracks. So they took out the supply bridge and left the retreat bridge.

If you look at Joe Weber's link, you can clearly see a hole in the "retreat" side.

[JoeWeber 2,736]

6 minutes ago, ryoder said:

If you look at Joe Weber's link, you can clearly see a hole in the "retreat" side.

I'm no bridgeologist but wouldn't something like this also be a utilities conduit of some sort? Water, communications, that sort of stuff.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I'm no bridgeologist but wouldn't something like this also be a utilities conduit of some sort? Water, communications, that sort of stuff.

Usually. It's a lot easier to string wires and run pipes over/under/inside and existing structure than it is to create new.

 

Interesting article in the BBC, it has a lot of social media posts from both sides. 

 

Quote

The Russian foreign ministry said: "The Kiev [Kyiv] regime's reaction towards destruction of civilian infrastructure is a testament to its terrorist nature."

Crimean parliamentary speaker Vladimir Konstantinov blamed the explosion on "Ukrainian vandals..."

He added the damage to the bridge would be "promptly restored, since it is not of a serious nature".

Funny how a very strategic bridge is 'civilian infrastructure'. 

How a very capable opponent are now 'vandals'.

And (of course), "Tis but a scratch".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63183404

In all seriousness, that bridge is badly damaged. They may have a lane open on the 'car' side, but the structural damage is likely significant. I don't think that bridge will hold significant weight without a LOT of work. 
And the train side is truly screwed.

The fires are going to do a lot of damage. Trains are heavy. 
I don't think anyone's going to see a train on that bridge for a LOOOOOOONG time. 
Maybe never. If (when?) Ukraine takes back the Crimean peninsula, I don't think they're going to want that bridge operational.

[ryoder 1,590]

1 minute ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Maybe never. If (when?) Ukraine takes back the Crimean peninsula, I don't think they're going to want that bridge operational.

Wikipedia -> Crimean_Bridge -> Operation and impact -> On Ukraine

Just read the section titled "On Ukraine". Executive summary: It is a PITA because it obstructs many ships that are too tall to pass under it.

[ryoder 1,590]

OK, now this video looks like there is one lane of the retreat side open:

Meduza: Large explosion reported at bridge connecting Russia to Crimea as roadway section collapses into Kerch Strait

And scroll down to see the "Happy Birthday" video to Putin.

Edited October 8, 2022 by ryoder

[Phil1111 1,149]

The bridge has dual traffic lanes in both directions. So one side is destroyed. It also has dual train tracks on a separate bridge section. I'd say train traffic is done.

Meanwhile the Ukrainian post office has already come out with a commemorative stamp.Perhaps Royal mail. Canada Post and USPS should pay the Ukrainian postal system. Consultation fees on how to speed up things.

[Phil1111 1,149]

6 minutes ago, ryoder said:

OK, now this video looks like there is one lane of the retreat side open:

Meduza: Large explosion reported at bridge connecting Russia to Crimea as roadway section collapses into Kerch Strait

Russia, AKA Slim Troll has already stated that it was a truck bomb. Thats no truck bomb. Thats underwater demolition on two separate supporting piers.

Slim will be along shortly to suggest that underwater saboteurs of such skill. Must have been the same ones to bomb the Nord pipelines.

[JoeWeber 2,736]

11 minutes ago, ryoder said:

OK, now this video looks like there is one lane of the retreat side open:

Meduza: Large explosion reported at bridge connecting Russia to Crimea as roadway section collapses into Kerch Strait

And scroll down to see the "Happy Birthday" video to Putin.

Big truck full of crazy high explosives? Just when the fuel train is rumbling by? Hmm.. Not buying it yet.

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by JoeWeber