Wingsuit Main Canopy

[damir 1]

Hello,

I am transitioning into wing suiting. I grew up on a Spectre and am pretty comfortable with them. However, I am stuck between the Spectre 150 vs Safire 2 150 as mains. If you have any experience with both please let me know. My #1 goal is soft openings. From there you have the 7 cells versus 9 cell and glide angle (Etc). Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[DSE 5]

you might want to ask this in the wingsuit forum.
However, you'll likely have better openings with a wingsuit and Spectre.

I jump Storms (either 135 or 150s, rig dependent), and prefer them over the Spectre. However, at your lower jump number, the Storm might be a bit too aggressive. The Spectre is an ideal wingsuit canopy, IMO.

[damir 1]

Interestingly I did not even notice that there was a wingsuit section on dz.com. Lots of info there. Thank you

[skyjumpenfool 2]

DSE.... This is off topic, but, why would a Storm be a bad choice for someone with lower jump #'s? I've jumped the storm and though it to be a very manageable wing. Does it have something to do with the wingsuit?

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[DSE 5]

The Storm is trimmed somewhat aggressively. Without going to PD's site to dig into their recommendations, it's not something a low-time skydiver would want to be under, wingsuit or not.
Yes, it's a very manageable wing, but it has a very positive flare, not a trait you'll see in newer skydivers (amongst other features).

[chemist 0]

can I get more opinions on the triathlon for wingsuit. Considering that as my next canopy. It'll be wingloaded to about ~1.4

[HIGH1 1]

chemist

can I get more opinions on the triathlon for wingsuit. Considering that as my next canopy. It'll be wingloaded to about ~1.4

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4734399;page=unread#unread

Check your ego at the door. Stay humble.

[riggerrob 643]

Hi Douglas,
What wing-loadings do you recommend for (Storm) wing-suiting?
I recently returned to jumping my Prodigy after being grounded for a year for knee surgery. My exit weight is now 230 pounds. Both my Stiletto 135 and Ariel 150 are a bit faster than comfortable for landing. Both my containers will easily accept 170 square foot canopies. My long-term goal is to up-size to a 290 square foot BASE canopy.
Finally, I have made 6,000 jumps over the last 40 years.

Would you recommend a Storm or Pulse?

[DSE 5]

Rob, I have both Storm and Pulse in a 170 :) THey're in my student kits.
The Pulse is a great canopy for packing and long glide. It wants a long area in which to land, and isn't ideal for zipping in and hitting a target. The Pulse doesn't do so well at high W/L, either IMO.

The Storm is fast, but shuts down equally fast. I'd choose the Storm.
The heavier the W/L, the better she flies and shuts down.

If you get to Toronto...you're welcome to take both for a ride.

[Elisha 1]

I'd say Sabre1, but you said "#1 goal is soft openings" so I guess never mind.

Really though, Sabre1 wingsuit openings are QUITE different from a normal "terminal" RW jumping opening. Being completely square, it opens on-heading. Even in my crappiest of body position openings, even if I get line twists, it just untwists itself once done twisting up. Can't say the same about my Crossefire-99.

[DSE 5]

Elisha

I'd say Sabre1, but you said "#1 goal is soft openings" so I guess never mind.

Really though, Sabre1 wingsuit openings are QUITE different from a normal "terminal" RW jumping opening. Being completely square, it opens on-heading. Even in my crappiest of body position openings, even if I get line twists, it just untwists itself once done twisting up. Can't say the same about my Crossefire-99.

I agree about the Sabre 1 being a great wingsuit canopy; most would tell you right off that the Crossfire is a terrible choice for wingsuiting. Sure, some people use them. Jonathan Tagle consistently defended his use of his Velo, too. In spite of double-digit cutaways with it.

[lyosha 50]

I would disagree that storm makes a bad first canopy. I know a couple of people that have gotten them. Typically these are people that want a more boring, docile canopy for a more predictable ride to the ground. A Sabre2 would be more aggressive...

[Elisha 1]

DSE

I agree about the Sabre 1 being a great wingsuit canopy; most would tell you right off that the Crossfire is a terrible choice for wingsuiting. Sure, some people use them. Jonathan Tagle consistently defended his use of his Velo, too. In spite of double-digit cutaways with it.

double-digit on a velo w/ wingsuit...no surprise there!

Yeah, I know about my crossfire...actually had my "inaugural" cutaway a week ago. It always flew nice and straight even with twists, but this time it was just real stubborn and didn't want to untwist from the ~3 twists I had. At 1800 while flying backward with the wind, I said see ya! After a few times with line twists, I put that sabre1 back in service (had been in my closet for a few years). Obviously this latest time on the crossfire caught up to me (thinking meh and not swapping out for the sabre1).

[DSE 5]

lyosha

I would disagree that storm makes a bad first canopy. I know a couple of people that have gotten them. Typically these are people that want a more boring, docile canopy for a more predictable ride to the ground. A Sabre2 would be more aggressive...

A Sabre II at equal wingloading to a Storm would not be more aggressive.
I have both, with at least 1000 jumps on the SabreII, and triple that on the Storm. There is nothing 'boring' about the Storm.

To the OP, talk to PD about why they rate it as it is.
Or, spend some time searching the forums. You'll find several posts from many people who have actually flown the Storm. You'll find several posts explaining why it's not an ideal first canopy.
PD will send out a demo, but you'd do well to have an email or phone conversation with them first.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Hah, I've been eyeing the Storm rental rig at the DZ. Maybe I should take it for a spin. I'm just loading my Safire 2 at 1.1:1 and never have a problem with the openings. I did on the first wingsuit jump I did -- body position. Lots of line twists, but had the altitude to kick them out. Had a bunch just recently due to my rig's legstraps riding unevenly. Other than that, it's been smooth sailing over the last 50 wingsuit jumps.

I was honestly a bit surprised over the people raising a fuss in that Squirrel video for their new wingsuiting canopy, and some other complaints I've heard recently about bad openings on wingsuits. Mine are usually pretty nice and I think more on-heading than my belly jumps tend to be.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[lyosha 50]

DSE

***I would disagree that storm makes a bad first canopy. I know a couple of people that have gotten them. Typically these are people that want a more boring, docile canopy for a more predictable ride to the ground. A Sabre2 would be more aggressive...

A Sabre II at equal wingloading to a Storm would not be more aggressive.
I have both, with at least 1000 jumps on the SabreII, and triple that on the Storm. There is nothing 'boring' about the Storm.

To the OP, talk to PD about why they rate it as it is.
Or, spend some time searching the forums. You'll find several posts from many people who have actually flown the Storm. You'll find several posts explaining why it's not an ideal first canopy.
PD will send out a demo, but you'd do well to have an email or phone conversation with them first.

PD will give you their sales pitch. Every canopy is the best ever and the Sabre II is a better swoop machine than a crossfire (plz no brand wars thnx).

Realistically the only thing "aggressive" about a Storm is its angle of attack. Aside from that it might as well be a seven cell Sabre1...

Like I said, a couple of my friends looking to be more conservative than getting a Sabre2 have gotten Storms (loaded at ~1:1) and love them because they are conservative. Take from this what you will. They are different canopies. Try both, try to survive, pick the one you like better and go with it.

[DSE 5]

lyosha

Realistically the only thing "aggressive" about a Storm is its angle of attack. Aside from that it might as well be a seven cell Sabre1...

Exactly.

It's essentially a 7 cell Katana.

You'd recommend a Katana to a low-time jumper?

[pchapman 279]

DSE

***
Realistically the only thing "aggressive" about a Storm is its angle of attack.

You'd recommend a Katana to a low-time jumper?

Hmm, maybe the difference of opinions can be brought closer together if considering wing loadings??

After all, PD does show suggested weights for "Student" category jumpers on Storms -- but only for the biggest sizes, 190 to 230. And "Novices" are good for 1:1 on Storms according to PD's chart. A Katana in contrast, lists Not Recommended for anything less than "Advanced".

Yet perhaps at non-light wing loadings the descent rate starts to be more difficult for newer jumpers to handle, when flaring? Even if the Storm isn't very sensitive to small turn inputs and is 'docile' in that sense.

(And, lyosha, I'd say the Storm has a steep trim angle, rather than 'angle of attack', preferring to reserve the latter term for its original aerodynamics & engineering meaning.)

I haven't even jumped a Storm so can't comment on actual flight characteristics, nor have I yet searched out other threads on Storms as DSE suggested, so my knowledge is limited.

[Edit: And now I've seen a thread where it is suggested that the slightly different CF Storms at 1.9-2.1 loading are tough to get decent landings on. But again, that particular characteristic is strongly influenced by wing loading.]

[skyjumpenfool 2]

DSE

The Storm is trimmed somewhat aggressively. Without going to PD's site to dig into their recommendations, it's not something a low-time skydiver would want to be under, wingsuit or not.
Yes, it's a very manageable wing, but it has a very positive flare, not a trait you'll see in newer skydivers (amongst other features).

I did a bunch of jumps on the Storm (CRW loaded at 1.33) canopies and was very impressed with them. So, I demo'd the sport version (various wing loadings) and really liked they way they flew/opened/landed.

It's my understanding that Wingsuiters have over 200 skydives. That's why, at a reasonable wing loading, I thought a Storm would be a good choice. Not being a wingsuiter, I defer to your expertise. Again, I agree that wing loading my be the key here.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[DSE 5]

skyjumpenfool

***The Storm is trimmed somewhat aggressively. Without going to PD's site to dig into their recommendations, it's not something a low-time skydiver would want to be under, wingsuit or not.
Yes, it's a very manageable wing, but it has a very positive flare, not a trait you'll see in newer skydivers (amongst other features).

I did a bunch of jumps on the Storm (CRW loaded at 1.33) canopies and was very impressed with them. So, I demo'd the sport version (various wing loadings) and really liked they way they flew/opened/landed.

It's my understanding that Wingsuiters have over 200 skydives. That's why, at a reasonable wing loading, I thought a Storm would be a good choice. Not being a wingsuiter, I defer to your expertise. Again, I agree that wing loading my be the key here.

I love the Storm. I don't care for how it lands at 1:1, but at 1.3 or higher, it's a terrific canopy. I'm at 1.5 and have really enjoyed it. Neither of the above wingloadings are necessarily good for newer skydivers, and at 200 jumps, one is very much a newer skydiver. Especially in higher altitudes.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

DSE

I love the Storm. I don't care for how it lands at 1:1, but at 1.3 or higher, it's a terrific canopy. I'm at 1.5 and have really enjoyed it. Neither of the above wingloadings are necessarily good for newer skydivers, and at 200 jumps, one is very much a newer skydiver. Especially in higher altitudes.

Ahhh, that explains your position. Thank you. I was jumping the canopy with 1.33 and Higher (to 1.8). What is the problem landing at 1.1 etc.? Toggle pressure? Flair? Dive?

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[DSE 5]

It's slow and trimmed steep and at light loads the flare is weak. If not timed just right it'll drop pretty quick. At higher loads, it's great. There is nothing "docile" about the canopy at higher loadings; John LeBlanc described it as a "7 cell Katana" at PIA a couple of years ago.

[lyosha 50]

DSE

***

Realistically the only thing "aggressive" about a Storm is its angle of attack. Aside from that it might as well be a seven cell Sabre1...

Exactly.

It's essentially a 7 cell Katana.

You'd recommend a Katana to a low-time jumper?

The Katana is a highly elliptical wing. No, I would not. It's twitchy and has one hell of a recovery arc.

I'm okay with a steeply trimmed square canopy though...

The Storm is less elliptical than a Sabre II and has a shorter recovery arc. What exactly makes it "more aggressive"?

[piisfish 140]

I have about 50 jumps on a Sabre 150 at around 1.3WL and about 350 jumps on a Safire2 139 at around 1.4WL.

I think the best when flying the wingsuit is to jump with a safeish canopy with which you are comfortable. I wouldn't change canopy at the same time I start the wingsuit.
If you like the Spectre, stay with it for some time. When changing canopy (like going to Safire), drop the wingsuit for some time until you get to know the canopy some more.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM