Croc 0 #376 May 31, 2015 And even if you do your night jumps for your D it doesn't matter if you ever saw anyone in free fall, or if you even find the drop zone. I have a friend who did his night jumps and, on his second one, landed a mile out. He never saw the ground, never flared, and seriously hurt his back. Jump counted, of course. What amazes me is that the USPA, which is an organization for and by the DZ owners, still has this requirement. Why don't they require all USPA affiliated DZs to offer night jumps at least once a year? It's an eyesight test that you can pass, even if you fail. "Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #377 May 31, 2015 I would add that if you don't do the night jumps you can't apply for a PRO rating. No exemptions. 4 of my last 6 demos have been night jumps. Otherwise it's no big deal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Croc 0 #378 May 31, 2015 grimmieI would add that if you don't do the night jumps you can't apply for a PRO rating. No exemptions. 4 of my last 6 demos have been night jumps. Otherwise it's no big deal. And you should demonstrate skill in night jumping with an accurate, stand up landing. Broken femurs a mile off don't count."Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #379 May 31, 2015 .......... You can easily log it in your log book, and get someone to sign it. ............. Forging logbooks is never a wise idea, especially when dealing with USPA headquarters. Most of the schemes you dream up ..... they saw 30 years ago. If USPA catches you forging a logbook entry, they will make it twice as difficult to earn any more licenses or ratings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AfghanVet 0 #380 June 1, 2015 CrocWell, I'm back to having an opinion on night jumps as a requirement for a D license. I still think the requirement is bullshit. If you don't want to do a night jump, fine. But then you won't be called an expert. No 500 jumps? Not an expert. No water training? Not an expert. No accuracy landings? Not an expert. No formation skydives? Not an expert. No pass on the written exam? Not an expert. If you want to be called an "expert", you need to have experienced a wide range of skydiving accomplishments, and proven your performance. If you're unwilling to do that, then don't try and claim a title that you haven't earned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #381 June 1, 2015 AfghanVet***Well, I'm back to having an opinion on night jumps as a requirement for a D license. I still think the requirement is bullshit. If you don't want to do a night jump, fine. But then you won't be called an expert. No 500 jumps? Not an expert. No water training? Not an expert. No accuracy landings? Not an expert. No formation skydives? Not an expert. No pass on the written exam? Not an expert. If you want to be called an "expert", you need to have experienced a wide range of skydiving accomplishments, and proven your performance. If you're unwilling to do that, then don't try and claim a title that you haven't earned. Where on a "D" license do you find the word "expert"? Why not add: No wingsuit jumps? Not an expert. No sitflying? Not an expert. No pond swooping? Not an expert. No CRW jumps? Not an expert.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #382 June 1, 2015 kallend Why not add: No wingsuit jumps? Not an expert. No sitflying? Not an expert. No pond swooping? Not an expert. No CRW jumps? Not an expert. All of those things are too new-fangled for the USPA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #383 June 1, 2015 Croc Well, I'm back to having an opinion on night jumps as a requirement for a D license. I still think the requirement is bullshit. It's like requiring a cross country runner to run in the dark in order to get a letter. No matter that he may hit a tree, fall in a ditch or trip over a stone, even if he is the best runner in the state, he doesn't get a letter until he does it in the dark. A night jump is a fun jump, a kind of a stunt, like a Mr. Bill. I've done several of those. How about we substitute Mr. Bills or some other useless stunt, like landing a stack (done those too) for a night jump? Oh, I forgot. We have to do night jumps because we might accidentally get on a plane at night. At least with a Mr. Bill you wouldn't have to drive all over the place trying to find a place to do it.Flame away. I put off night jumps because I considered them to be increased risk and all that I really want to do is to keep healthy and keep jumping. However, after I passed 500 jumps I thought, "Sure, why not". My first night jump was a solo and with no one else in the patterned near me, I landed right at the edge of the pea pit with the only issue being a slight misjudgment of the depth to the ground. Still a easy stand up landing. But on the second jump another jumper appeared to be on a long base leg when I was on my downwind. I could see his strobe on his left hip but I was not sure he could see mine on my left hip. In giving the jumper a lot of room, I positioned myself so that getting back to where they had the car lights on the landing area was impossible. I had tried to plan for such an event and had a belly pack with a fair headlamp in it. I had put the headlamp on right after deployment and now it was a good thing that I had it. Clouds had covered the moon and the headlight allowed me to be able to flare but with poor timing. While the night jump was enjoyable, the landing risks do seem to make it a bad idea in some cases. I do have a bigger headlamp now, for the next time.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AfghanVet 0 #384 June 1, 2015 kallend*** No 500 jumps? Not an expert. No water training? Not an expert. No accuracy landings? Not an expert. No formation skydives? Not an expert. No pass on the written exam? Not an expert. Why not add: No wingsuit jumps? Not an expert. No sitflying? Not an expert. No pond swooping? Not an expert. No CRW jumps? Not an expert. All of those things are optional individual choices. The ability to stay safe in the sport requires water training, accuracy landing capabilities, and knowledge of BSR's and FARs. So those are mandatory to be called an "expert". They are fundamental things to know, regardless of what other specialties you participate in. As an engineer, you're probably considered an "expert" in only some fields of engineering, but not all of them. You might be knowledgeable about structural engineering, but not know anything about fluid dynamics. You could be an aeronautical engineer and know nothing about electrical engineering. You don't have to know everything about all specialties to be an expert. But you should be highly knowledgeable about a few things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluhdow 31 #385 June 1, 2015 The problem with your argument is that all of the things listed are compulsory to being a good skydiver, except night jumps. No 500 jumps? Not an expert. - Agree, jump numbers matter. No water training? Not an expert. - Agree, water landings can occur and you need to know how to deal with them. No accuracy landings? Not an expert. - Agree, accuracy is important on EVERY jump. No formation skydives? Not an expert. - Agree, jumping with people is a fundamental skill. No pass on the written exam? Not an expert. - Agree, academic knowledge of the sport is important to being a better/safer jumper. But night jumps? To someone's point above...what are you going to do? Accidentally skydive at night? It's no more compulsory than wingsuiting or CReW. It's a silly prerequisite with no real value. Most of the people I know do night jumps ONLY for the D qualification and then never again.Apex BASE #1816 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 2 #386 June 1, 2015 Bluhdow But night jumps? To someone's point above...what are you going to do? Accidentally skydive at night? It's no more compulsory than wingsuiting or CReW. It's a silly prerequisite with no real value. Most of the people I know do night jumps ONLY for the D qualification and then never again. In reality, I'd see a minimal CReW proficiency as a much more fitting requirement for a D-Licence/Expert qualification. CRW teaches skills that are useful and life-saving to a skydiving "expert", it teaches you to fly in a crowded landing pattern like C-D landing area often are without freaking out if there is another canopy withing 200ft of you, it teaches you to fly relative to a canopy so you don't overtake it dumbly below 100 ft because you can't trim your descent rate, it teaches you how to extent your glide better than any canopy course, it teaches you how to over float a canopy if you need to give room to somebody else, it teaches you how to get out, avoid a wrap in case shit hits the fan. And much more. Ultimately, it's a great, if not unique, canopy skill and confidence booster. Also, you are much more likely to do "unintentional CRW" than you are to do an "unintentional night jump".I'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #387 June 1, 2015 If USPA changes requirements for D license, need to keep requirements similar to D license in other countries. FAI tried to standardize skydiving license requirements circa 2000, but USPA adopted some minor changes that only make sense if you understand the 40 year picture if USPA politics. Otherwise, the minor differences between USPA and CSPA and BPA and APF licenses just confuse junior jumpers, instructors and manifestors. In the end, I would prefer only one set or requirements for D license ... planet-wide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #388 June 1, 2015 Di0*** But night jumps? To someone's point above...what are you going to do? Accidentally skydive at night? It's no more compulsory than wingsuiting or CReW. It's a silly prerequisite with no real value. Most of the people I know do night jumps ONLY for the D qualification and then never again. In reality, I'd see a minimal CReW proficiency as a much more fitting requirement for a D-Licence/Expert qualification. CRW teaches skills that are useful and life-saving to a skydiving "expert", ....... I still don't see the word "expert" anywhere on my "D" license, nor anywhere in section 3-1 of the SIM. The whole "expert" or "master" thing is just a red herring.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Croc 0 #389 June 1, 2015 AfghanVet***Well, I'm back to having an opinion on night jumps as a requirement for a D license. I still think the requirement is bullshit. If you don't want to do a night jump, fine. But then you won't be called an expert. No 500 jumps? Not an expert. No water training? Not an expert. No accuracy landings? Not an expert. No formation skydives? Not an expert. No pass on the written exam? Not an expert. If you want to be called an "expert", you need to have experienced a wide range of skydiving accomplishments, and proven your performance. If you're unwilling to do that, then don't try and claim a title that you haven't earned. No Mr. Bills, no expert. Just as valid as a night jump."Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #390 June 1, 2015 How can one receive a D license without knowing how to fly one's body at all axis?Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Furiosa 0 #391 June 2, 2015 kallendI still don't see the word "expert" anywhere on my "D" license, nor anywhere in section 3-1 of the SIM. Then I guess this sport has no experts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #392 June 2, 2015 stayhighHow can one receive a D license without knowing how to fly one's body at all axis? Apparently one can. Neither the D license requirements, nor the C license aerial performance requirements (the D license requirements expressly incorporate all of the C license requirements) require classic freefly skills, such as back-fly, sit-fly, head-down or transition to and/or from any of those orientations. D license C license Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #393 June 2, 2015 Mine says "Master". I kind of like that better than expert😃 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Croc 0 #394 June 2, 2015 stayhighHow can one receive a D license without knowing how to fly one's body at all axis? An excellent point."Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #395 June 2, 2015 Maybe you should rope your local TI into a clandestine night tandem... no wait... forget that. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #396 June 3, 2015 This subject is obviously important to you, for you to revive a 7 &1/2 year old thread that you started 9 years ago. It's certainly a reasonable topic. I admit I haven't gone back and read all 395 posts, but: have you proactively engaged the USPA in an effort to persuade them to revise the D license requirements to realistically reflect the current state of the sport? If so, how have your efforts been received by them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Croc 0 #397 June 3, 2015 Andy9o8This subject is obviously important to you, for you to revive a 7 &1/2 year old thread that you started 9 years ago. It's certainly a reasonable topic. I admit I haven't gone back and read all 395 posts, but: have you proactively engaged the USPA in an effort to persuade them to revise the D license requirements to realistically reflect the current state of the sport? If so, how have your efforts been received by them? No. I'm not on any kind of crusade or anything. I was looking for something else when I found my own thread and realized that I still view it as an idiotic requirement since absolutely no skill is involved--the jumps count no matter what. Isn't that a joke? I did my two and I'll probably never do any others unless it is CRW. Not really important to me at all."Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craigbey 0 #398 June 3, 2015 Di0*** But night jumps? To someone's point above...what are you going to do? Accidentally skydive at night? It's no more compulsory than wingsuiting or CReW. It's a silly prerequisite with no real value. Most of the people I know do night jumps ONLY for the D qualification and then never again. In reality, I'd see a minimal CReW proficiency as a much more fitting requirement for a D-Licence/Expert qualification. CRW teaches skills that are useful and life-saving to a skydiving "expert", it teaches you to fly in a crowded landing pattern like C-D landing area often are without freaking out if there is another canopy withing 200ft of you, it teaches you to fly relative to a canopy so you don't overtake it dumbly below 100 ft because you can't trim your descent rate, it teaches you how to extent your glide better than any canopy course, it teaches you how to over float a canopy if you need to give room to somebody else, it teaches you how to get out, avoid a wrap in case shit hits the fan. And much more. Ultimately, it's a great, if not unique, canopy skill and confidence booster. Also, you are much more likely to do "unintentional CRW" than you are to do an "unintentional night jump". Such training would be far more valuable than night jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #399 June 3, 2015 they should change it so that you need D license in order to jump at night. Night jumps is of the most dangerous jumps that one can do and it is crazy to see 50 jump wonders jump in groups at night. Yee-ha.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #400 June 3, 2015 Perhaps its a holdover from military jumpers. Perhaps it's a confidence builder. Perhaps it's a test and a right of passage. Frankly night jumps are fun. Man up and get out the plane. Not everything we do has to conform neatly into some useful training structure for a D license. Maybe if you're overly concerned about the risks of a night jump then you're not cut out to have a D license. You don't HAVE to make night jumps, you can stick with your C license. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
