Two Paths of Canopy Progression with John LeBlanc

[3mpire 0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK2_yQ_A9Fc

Thoughts?

[Joellercoaster 6]

I actually got to chat with John after he presented this at the BPA Expo this year. It makes a lot of instinctive sense to me.

As a total left-branch flyer (progression: Pilot, Pilot, Pilot, Vision, Pilot, Stiletto, found the Sabre2 a bit clunky and hated the Katana) I'm wondering what technological advances are coming for us, though - seems like the right branch is getting all the cool new toys for a while now.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[JohnMitchell 16]

Great presentation so far. Gonna pause it and go jumping, though. I'll finish it tonight.

[Stusmooth 0]

Nice. It made me understand things alot better. I am just now feeling the difference between the canopies so I have alot to learn. I am looking to purchase my first canopy right now so it sure helps not having a trial and error thing going on because that can hurt! I have been jumping a Nav 200 about 25 jumps. I recently jumped a Sabre 2 210 and really loved it. But anything compared to a Navigator feels like a race car to me. I am a ex moto racer so the speed doesn't scare me the other people do. I jump at Z-Hills and have been cut off before so I do like the idea of a faster recovery canopy. Is there a PD demo in the south coming anytime soon that anyone knows about?

[PiLFy 3]

I found this one to be very informative, as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLJdDXJ9qBI

Thank You for posting, OP.

[ryoder 1,590]

"Start out too small and downsize if you're not injured yet."

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[pms07 3]

As always, it's instructive to listen to John talk about canopy flight. His "two paths" explanation is great way for people to think about what they want from a canopy.

[achikin 0]

This version has slides. Sweet!

[PixieUK 0]

I was also at the Expo and got a chance to chat with John after this presentation (and also his presentation on how to prevent hard openings at the same event).

It made a lot of sense to me. I am still a very new jumper and at one dz went from a Navigator to a Spectre 210 (wingloading around 0.8). It frightened the bejeesus out of me and I felt I was lucky to land it safely (on my feet and well out of the pattern, a long way from everyone else!). The turns felt very aggressive compared with a Nav, I lost a lot of height in each full turn, the flare was sharper and I found it difficult to do full practice flares up high which didn't fill me with confidence for landing.

I now fly a Silhouette 190 and absolutely love it. Lovely long glide, smooth flares despite being an older canopy, can lose height if I want to by steep turns but actually will do a 360 and not lose much height at all on toggle turns. I suspect that if I went back to the Spectre now, it wouldn't feel nearly so aggressive but I'm in no rush to move on, I just want to get down safely and comfortably after my freefall is over

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[Stusmooth 0]

What size Navigator did you go to the 210 Spectre from? I am a very new jumper and I went from a Nav 200 to a Sabre 210 on a jump and it had a full flare. I loved it. I am looking for my first canopy and plan on trying a Silhouette. There is a 190 Spectre at my DZ for rental but I had a instructer friend tell me that is was a little jump from a 200Nav. Thanks for the input.

[hillson 0]

Stusmooth

I jump at Z-Hills...Is there a PD demo in the south coming anytime soon that anyone knows about?

I assume you're renting the demo gear from the Sunshine Factory. They may not have *everything* in *every* size but the rental stock used to be something like...

PD
Sab2 150-210
Pulse 150-210
Storm 150-210
Spectre ??? (similar, but might just have the Storm, now). There is a school rig (I think) with a Spectre 170/190 - that might be the little girl rig so don't know if it fits.

Icarus
Safire 2 170-190

Aerodyne
Pilot 190...??

(yes, I know those aren't the actual model designations...)

There might be some other odds and ends...no need for the demo tour.

[PixieUK 0]

Stusmooth

What size Navigator did you go to the 210 Spectre from? I am a very new jumper and I went from a Nav 200 to a Sabre 210 on a jump and it had a full flare. I loved it. I am looking for my first canopy and plan on trying a Silhouette. There is a 190 Spectre at my DZ for rental but I had a instructer friend tell me that is was a little jump from a 200Nav. Thanks for the input.

I had been jumping a Nav 240 and the instructors (including an AFF instructor) assured me I would be fine and that it was a docile canopy. They neglected to tell me it was a shaped 7 cell (i.e. rather different characteristics from the rectangular 9 cell Nav) and it was a shock to find out the differences on opening and doing my canopy checks. In the end, it was fine but I had too many "got away with it" moments and decided I wouldn't jump it again until I was a lot more confident with my canopy handling skills. I don't think it is an aggressive canopy as such, it's just a big difference flying it compared with a Navigator and I was completely unprepared for that. The Silhouette is also a very rectangular 9 cell and I have flown several sizes (dz rental gear).

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[pchapman 279]

PixieUK

***What size Navigator did you go to the 210 Spectre from?

I had been jumping a Nav 240 and the instructors (including an AFF instructor) assured me I would be fine and that it was a docile canopy. They neglected to tell me it was a shaped 7 cell (i.e. rather different characteristics from the rectangular 9 cell Nav) and it was a shock
[...]
I don't think it is an aggressive canopy as such, it's just a big difference flying it compared with a Navigator and I was completely unprepared for that.

An interesting example of where a difference in canopies is almost trivial to experienced jumpers, but a surprise to someone who really only has experience with one or two canopies at all.

Unless it is a brand new instructor, they may not have flown the DZ's student canopies in many years, or those particular canopy types, ever.

It can take some work to get feedback from students back to the instructing team so they know what to brief students on, other than to say, "You'll find it handles a little differently, have fun."

[PixieUK 0]

pchapman

******What size Navigator did you go to the 210 Spectre from?

I had been jumping a Nav 240 and the instructors (including an AFF instructor) assured me I would be fine and that it was a docile canopy. They neglected to tell me it was a shaped 7 cell (i.e. rather different characteristics from the rectangular 9 cell Nav) and it was a shock
[...]
I don't think it is an aggressive canopy as such, it's just a big difference flying it compared with a Navigator and I was completely unprepared for that.

An interesting example of where a difference in canopies is almost trivial to experienced jumpers, but a surprise to someone who really only has experience with one or two canopies at all.

Unless it is a brand new instructor, they may not have flown the DZ's student canopies in many years, or those particular canopy types, ever.

It can take some work to get feedback from students back to the instructing team so they know what to brief students on, other than to say, "You'll find it handles a little differently, have fun."

That's where John's presentation was very interesting, in how he placed different canopies. He did actually say that the Spectre was steeper in its turn (no kidding! compared with a Nav, a Spectre dives at the ground, lol). If instructors used a similar chart for student progression, a Silhouette or Sabre2 would be preferable to a Spectre.

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[Stusmooth 0]

I just talked to them recently and they didn't have all those different size rigs to choose from. They only rent each rig for the day and won't let me pack the chute. I am taking my second canopy course tomorrow and renting skydive city's Navigator 200 without a collapsible chute. That is why I am dying to get my on rig. I am a nobody and unimportant at the Sunshine Factory but I am a local. Thanks for the help.

[hillson 0]

That is *sort* of what he said...but not really. He also cautioned against taking his new chart as gospel - and he seemed a bit frustrated that it was already happening. It was a good presentation, however, and t certainly worth a view.

FWIW, the Sabre2 is going to turn quicker and dive harder than the Spectre. Your degree of surprise would have been, I think, a bit greater on that wing. That being said, both are appropriate introductions to sport canopies.

And remember, every time you jump you're jumping with a 7-cell...your reserve. :) and while I wouldn't make a direct comparison to the Spectre and whatever is in your upper pack tray...a little 7-cell experience isn't a bad thing as they do fly a bit differently than what the majority of people are jumping (9-cell).

A good part of the presentation, too, was the idea that there many paths to the same point and an attempt to destigmatize those that choose the path where the parachute is simply the "stop button" to the skydive. He mentioned that talking to the regular sport jumpers that were not interested in faster, longer, steeper told him that they wanted a parachute that "landed them well". To which he remarked that people on the higher performance path may say "ah, but I can land any parachute well!" But what the other group really meant was more along the lines of docility, the excess flare power / "shutdown-ability", as it were, etc...that a parachute that "lands me well" is an appropriate design requirement.

[hillson 0]

It has been years since I've rented so their policies may have changed. Dunno.

If you happen to be there on Friday as well hit me up and we'll go make a jump or two.

[Stusmooth 0]

I will be there Friday. Thanks for the information.

[yoink 321]

It's an interesting presentation which raised some questions in my my mind.


I started getting really excited when John was showing comparable data between the Pulse and the Katana. I'd love to see more of this...

One of the things which really hit home was the flight speeds and how that translates into the speed at which stuff happens in the air.

Imagine a 2 way where one of you has a 180 on opening and are jumping the same canopy. For just those two canopies (at relatively conservative loadings) you now have a closing speed of between 85 and 100mph!
If you track poorly and end up with 500ft between you that's between 3 and 4 seconds to avoid a collision, AS you're dealing with post deployment mental adjustment.

So it's not enough to have good canopy skills for some of these canopies. You need to have good enough freefall skills to get into open space if you're using them in a crowded sky.

[sundevil777 102]

I often grab deep brakes immediately after opening to reduce fwd speed. I confirm where other canopies and those still in free fall are before going to full flight.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am