docjohn 0 #1 April 4, 2006 Ok. I'm confused. (BTW: 'novice' for this dicussion means a person off student status but before A license) Great discussion on SKYDIVE RADIO about D license holders jumping with a 'novice' (graduated AFF or S/L but before their A license). What I heard was "One on One" is ok. One novice, one D license holder. Sounds like a fun 2-way. Cool. But then I heard you can have 2 novices and 2 D license holders and build a 4-way (I think I heard that). So you can have one D license holder plus one novice, but can you add 6 more B and C license holders to the dive and build an 8-way (legally)? Or can 19 D license holders take a novice on a 20 way (legally)? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass. I'm seriously confused about this. We occassionally take fresh AFF grads on a congratulatory 4way or 6way or so (no instructors, no coaches, but D license holders). So is this legal? I'm not asking if this is advisable, is it a good idea, is it safe.....(because it probably isn't). I'm asking is it what USPA is saying is LEGAL under the new USPA BSR's? Serious answers requested. But if you want to flame me, give me a second to put on my asbestos jumpsuit. . Doc http://www.manifestmaster.com/video Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #2 April 4, 2006 Ok. I'm confused. _______________________________________ Yeah, I'm confused also. Why would the USPA allow this? Unfortunatly there are some D- lic. jumpers who are not responsible enought to take students on jumps. Prior to an A lic, they are students not novices. Only a USPA Coach or higher understands the responsibality and has been trained in dealing with students. Hopefully!_________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #3 April 4, 2006 From the note I saw about this the max would be 4 people: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2084938;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; QuoteA question is posed about allowing D-license holders to jump with unlicensed students who are signed off for self-supervision in relative work. A ratio of a minimum of one D-license holder to one student seems practical with a maximum size of four people. This was approved. Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #4 April 4, 2006 From the S&T USPA news letter.... QuoteThe second change allows D-license holders who do not hold a coach or instructor rating to jump with students cleared to solo freefall supervision. This was previously handled by a waiver from the local S&TA. The change allows the jumps to now take place without the waiver process. Basic Safety Requirement 2-1 E.6 has been changed to read as follows: 6. Students training for group freefall Student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by either: A USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA Instructor or; D-license holders provided there is a minimum ratio of one D-license holder to one student with a maximum of a 4-way. Both of these changes came about after a handful of requests to the USPA Board to ease the requirements regarding student jumps based on the fact that the changes had worked well for those who were operating under a waiver to the requirements in the past. I asked a USPA official the same question... You can do up to a 4 way - so as long as there is one D for every student. The funny part... You can D + D + Student + Student... But what about a D + D + C + Student... Not allowed by the wording, but having a "C" should be just as safe, or more safe, than having two students... Funny... I guess they are going to revisit the wording once it is tested in the field, but at this point, there are a lot of questions... I also find it funny that the Coach (regardless of B/C/D licence) must be under the supervision of an instructor - but a D without the coach rating can operate without supervision of an instructor. Take the interpretation of the wording one step further - and you can *assume* that anyone with a coach rating must be under the supervision of an instructor, so a D with a Coach rating... Which clause/option wins - with supervision or without? And... Why can the D do a 4way and coaches not? And... A real world I faced last week... Student cleared for solo + AFFI + AFFI... Could we take a 4th with a "B"??? The wording seems to need to be refined a bit to make these questions cut and dry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #5 April 4, 2006 Unfortunatly there are some D- lic. jumpers who are not responsible enought to take students on jumps. *** I know several that fit this description, they are either careless, or seriously lacking in skills. I think its the instructor and S&TA's job to make sure these people dont get the chance to endanger the low timer, even if it means bursting their bubble and telling them flat out they cant jump with the novice... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #6 April 4, 2006 And unfortunately there are some "coaches" that I wouldn't consider particularly qualified to conduct the jumps either... Alas, maybe I'll have to break down and make those night jumps so I am all-of-a-sudden "qualified" to jump with a student. Or maybe I could just fork out some money for a coach rating... and then money to renew it over... and over... and over... NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #7 April 4, 2006 Quote Alas, maybe I'll have to break down and make those night jumps so I am all-of-a-sudden "qualified" to jump with a student. You haven't done any night jumps yet? Fun stuff near cities. Maybe not so much for a place like Eloy. And yeah, irrelevent to the question of coaching abilities. But you have to have some threshold if the coaching rating is to be unnecessary, and D or nothing seems to be it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schoenauer 0 #8 April 4, 2006 QuoteSo you can have one D license holder plus one novice, but can you add 6 more B and C license holders to the dive and build an 8-way (legally)? NO it is not in keeping with BSR 2-1 E.6 "D-license holders provided there is a minimum ratio of one D-license holder to one student with a maximum of a 4-way." (This means a coaching student can not participate in anything larger than a 4-way and there must by one D-licensed holder for each coaching student, maintaining a ratio of one to one.) The way I read the new change, and no doubt it is confusing, there shall be no less then one D-licensed skydiver for every Coaching student on the same skydive. I define a coaching student is one who has been cleared to self-jumpmaster but who is not yet an A-licensed holder. This means, a single D-licensed holder can not supervise two coaching students on the same skydive. If there is a four way being planed, it could consist of no more than two coaching students and two D-licensed holders in the skydive. This maintains the ratio of D-licensed holders to coaching students as one to one. The alternate to this at first glance, is there could be a four way planned with two coaching students a coach and a D-licensed holder or two coaches. I recommend to the DZs powers that be who read this watch and control of who does what with your students, they are still your students they are not yet A-licensed.Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jheadley 0 #9 April 4, 2006 QuoteOk. I'm confused. _______________________________________ Yeah, I'm confused also. Why would the USPA allow this? Unfortunatly there are some D- lic. jumpers who are not responsible enought to take students on jumps. Prior to an A lic, they are students not novices. Only a USPA Coach or higher understands the responsibality and has been trained in dealing with students. Hopefully! On the other hand, I've met some USPA coaches who also have no business jumping with students (for example, myself at 120 jumps, when I got my rating) I think this new rule is ok as long as the D license holder has at least 100 or so RW jumps and has a briefing on the rules of flying with students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schoenauer 0 #10 April 5, 2006 QuoteYeah, I'm confused also. Why would the USPA allow this? The change came about because quite a few S&TA’s are waving BSR 2-1 E.6 each year, at the request of the DZs that they represent. The DZs are wanting this because they want the flexibility to be able to use non rated D-Licensed holders to supervise a coaching student on the aircraft so the student may do a solo, or maybe on an actual coach training jump. QuoteUnfortunatly there are some D- lic. jumpers who are not responsible enought to take students on jumps. Prior to an A lic, they are students not novices. I agree. As I said earlier, non A-licensed holders are still student even though they have been cleared to self jumpmaster by an instructor. DZ’s should watch and maintain control of who is doing what with their students, they are still the DZs students and they are not yet A-licensed. If the DZs don’t exercise control then they are dropping the ball and are playing a risky game that may lead to a coaching student being place with an incompetent D-licensed holder.Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #11 April 5, 2006 Some good reply's so far. I'll add a point that some DZO's may now pressure "D" license holders to participate in the student program when they don't want to. Anybody assisting with student work should understand the responsibility supervision entails in terms of spotting, gear checks, approval of activities, and possible rides down in the airplane. Supervising students at any level adds liability, and sure isn't for everybody. If you are going to get involved in this process you need to be comfortable with the program and willing to carry the liability on your shoulders. I've broken a few students in my time, and it sucks real bad. It sucks even more if you suddenly find yourself standing in a farmers field looking down at a student who you were supervising through spotting and thought would be a no sweat extra few dollars, but who landed out and broke a leg, or worse. Don't say yes to supervising students unless you are really willing to shoulder the responsibility. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #12 April 6, 2006 Im wondering at this point why anyone would bother getting the coach rating other than to get an AFF or TM rating? I have been coaching students for at least a year and have seen my share of D lic holders and Coaches who shouldn't be with students. Even worse are the D-Lic holders that have had the D since when it was changed from 200 jumps and STILL haven't broke 500. The change to me is very frustrating.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #13 April 8, 2006 QuoteEven worse are the D-Lic holders that have had the D since when it was changed from 200 jumps and STILL haven't broke 500. The change to me is very frustrating. Sorry my group disappoints you. Some of us are busy with other things in life. And, also, there are other ratings besides AFF and TM. Kris Less than 500 jumps, but D-licensed and still an IAD-ISky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
