Are Tandem Rigs a lot more likely to malfunction?

[steve1 5]

I have a friend with over four thousand jumps. He has around 26 malfunction cut-aways. Most are on tandem rigs. Some of these malfunctions involved broken lines. At any rate just how dependable are tandem rigs? These statistics don't look good. I was just wondering if other tandem instructors have had similiar problems......Steve1

[billvon 2,991]

I have found that it depends greatly on gear maintenance. Back when we were still using the F-111 tandem mains, we got to a point where 1 in 20 jumps was a mal; the mains just got so worn out that they weren't opening well any more. We replaced the mains and the problem went away.

[billbooth 10]

Tandem rigs are more complicated, the canopies are much bigger, and therefore have a lot more line to tangle up with itself. They are also harder to pack neatly because of their size. So, unless you are careful, you will have more malfunctions than on smaller, simpler systems. However, I know of several drop zones that go thousands of jumps between tandem malfunctions. The only difference is that they flat pack, and do so very carefully.

[FrogNog 1]

Bill, isn't the extra line length on very large canopies another risk factor for tension-knot and bag-lock malfunctions? I thought you or Strong said something about that (in reference both to tandem mains _and_ tandem reserves).

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[sid 1]

Quote

Tandem rigs are more complicated, the canopies are much bigger, and therefore have a lot more line to tangle up with itself. They are also harder to pack neatly because of their size. So, unless you are careful, you will have more malfunctions than on smaller, simpler systems. However, I know of several drop zones that go thousands of jumps between tandem malfunctions. The only difference is that they flat pack, and do so very carefully.

Bill, I know of a packer that has pro-packed thousands of tandem mains without a malfunction (me) and agrees with you on one aspect only, the careful factor. Your flat packing rhetoric is not realistic. Any modern ram air canopy can be pro packed as well as flat packed with the same risk of malfunctions. Tandem malfunctions are usually caused by poor line management during packing or bad maintenance by rig owners trying to squeak the last few jumps out of a drogue. Malfunctions should be no more common on a tandem system than a sport system.

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[billvon 2,991]

>Malfunctions should be no more common on a tandem system than a sport system.

That assumes:

1) Reliable openings have nothing to do with size
2) Complexity does not increase malfunction rate
3) Changing freefall speeds do not affect opening reliability

I don't think any of those have been demonstrated. I think tandem mains can be packed to open relatively reliably, but I don't think they will ever be as reliable as an experienced jumper jumping a good main who packs it himself in a consistent manner.

[mark135 0]

I am more comfortable mal wise with my strong tandem rig than I am with my spinetto.

_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

[altichick 1]

What they said ^^^
A few other things that may make cutaways on tandem gear more likely.... some things that may not require a cutaway on a sport rig do require a cutaway on a tandem rig (eg broken steering lines)

Hard deck is higher for tandems and once the drouge has collapsed freefall speeds are quicker for a tandem pair than for a solo jumper (depending on the mal) so there may be less time to deal with/assess/fix things. Finally, you are responsible for your pasenger as well as yourself and even more likely to err on the side of caution.

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[wimdevos 0]

I think about the possibility that tandems have more malfunctions because the video mans
burble disturbs the opening of the tandem.
Are there more malfunctions with cameraman than without?
What do you think?

[MooChooser 0]

Im not sure if youre serious, but if you are, think about the fact that every canopy opens in/above the burble of its wearer.

[riggerrob 643]

I doubt if the cameraman's burble makes much difference in tandem openings, but there have been a couple of fatalities where cameramen collided with tandems, knocking the TI unconscious or even killing him halfway down.
Cameramen definitely complicate tandems.

[riggerrob 643]

Yes, tandem rigs are more likely to malfunction because they are more complicated.

Out of almost 5,000 total jumps, I have:
20 reserve rides,
15 tandem,
14 tandem reserve rides after F-111 mains maled.
Only 1 cutaway from a ZP tandem main with some sort of tension knot
2 or 3 cutaways from damaged Strong 520 mains.
a couple of baglocks
several from broken suspension lines and a bunch of cutaways from tension knots before I learned how to clear them in mid-air.only one terminal reserve opening after a hard pull on the drogue.

The worst combination was a tired, old, F-111 main with dirty, fuzzy, Dacron lines and a tired drogue side-packed by the newest staff member. The worst thing about side-packing F-111 mains was that it was like choosing between having Mike Tyson punch you in the left collar bone or Mohammed Ali punch you in the right collar bone???
Strong 520s were the worst because they opened hard even with the best of packers.

[wildjump 0]

Tandems have more mals because most dropzones need to make money. They do that by making tandems, lots of them. There is always pressure on the staff to do more and do them faster. That means faster and sloppier packing, pushing off maintenance to a more convenient time, putting on you rig and running to the plane without a proper gear inspection. On and on. No contest between "deal with a few mals" and "make money"

[billvon 2,991]

>Strong 520s were the worst because they opened hard even with the best of packers.

I hated those 11 cell monsters. Had an extra set of grommets on the slider to encourage tension knots, too, if I recall correctly.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Steve, that is a bunch of cutaways! I have just one reserve ride in ~500 tandems; five reserve rides total in ~4,400 jumps. We, as a dropzone, have only had three tandem malfunctions since the year 2001. Carefull packing, great equipment, good maintenance.

Chuck

[sid 1]

Quote

Carefull packing, great equipment, good maintenance.

Chuck

Alleluja!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[skydiverjerry 0]

h there,
i have a lot of mals from test jumps and other conditions only about a handfull are on tandems,

as has already been said tandems are no more likely to mal than sport rigs, the diffrence is in the size and construction of the gear.

the addition of the drouge creats an additional engeneering problem, murphys law says that if it can break it will at the worst possible moment.

the addition of the passenger means additional considerations,

the main thing about mals on any canopy is to consider what causes them and how to prevent that.
i have developed a powerpoint presentation about mals maybe one of the moderators can tell me how to get it out to the public now via this forum.

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[bob.dino 1]

Quote

i have developed a powerpoint presentation about mals maybe one of the moderators can tell me how to get it out to the public now via this forum.

If it's under about 100KB, you can attach it to a post here. If it's too big for that, I'll be happy to host it in perpetuity on my website & we can post the link here for others to enjoy.

PM me and I'll help you work through any technical problems you might encounter.

[skydiverjerry 0]

pm sent and thanks for the offer

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[wimdevos 0]

Hi MooChooser
Yes I am serious,
The best videos from malfunctions an blown up canopies are taken from close
distance………………….

Let me try to explain my thoughts with a simple picture:
see attachment
Have a nice day
Wim

[mark135 0]

Quote

Tandems have more mals because most dropzones need to make money. They do that by making tandems, lots of them. There is always pressure on the staff to do more and do them faster. That means faster and sloppier packing, pushing off maintenance to a more convenient time, putting on you rig and running to the plane without a proper gear inspection. On and on. No contest between "deal with a few mals" and "make money"

You need to find a new dz.

_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

[Liemberg 0]

Don't know Wim, but if the cameraflyer is so close during my opening that his burble is influencing my canopy, there are some other urgent matters to discuss with that cameraflyer...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[kissrg 0]

Quote

Hi MooChooser
Yes I am serious,
The best videos from malfunctions an blown up canopies are taken from close
distance………………….

Let me try to explain my thoughts with a simple picture:
see attachment
Have a nice day
Wim

And what about the burble of the tandem pair?

Robert

[MooChooser 0]

Nice picture...
Heres one back atcha

[Tonto 1]

My Tandem malfunction rate was significantly higher than my average, at about 1 malfunction per 100 tandems. (I've had 7 chops in 750 Tandems) My last Tandem cut away resulted in a partial reserve malfunction.

Since I don't own or pack the Tandem rigs at our DZ, I elected to stop Tandem and focus on AFF. I still believe in the Tandem system, but as Bill said earlier in this thread, those who experience the lowest malfunction rate have the most meticulous approach to packing. I'd certainly consider getting my rating again if I were to work at such a dropzone.

t

It's the year of the Pig.