Any GOOD rubber bands around?

[sheeks 6]

Ever since the global working shortage it seems all the rubber bands from chutingstar arrive somewhat, with no powder, and break super easy. This has been consistant among multiple shipments

obviously this isn't ideal

 

i was wondering if anyone knew of any companies selling good, legit, fresh rubber banda?

[pchapman 279]

For the record here it may be worth quoting from Chuting Star, given that Keener Rubber has shut down:

Quote

These heavyweight parachute bands are designed specifically for sport skydiving rigs. Manufactured in the USA from natural crepe rubber (a latex product), these parachute bands are also used by military parachute riggers to hold cord in place when rigging parachutes. They’re ideal for any application requiring a rubber band with good stretch. You can use these to pack your parachute, or simply to manage the paracord you keep in your pack or survival kit. They also loop well on PALS grids for securing necessities like tourniquets.

Note: Keener Rubber supplied the skydiving industry rubber bands for decades, but went out of business in 2021. Since that time, there is only one business manufacturing rubber bands in the sizes/types used in skydiving: Alliance Rubber. There are differences in the process and materials, and we have found that the standard grade rubber bands from Alliance (Sterling Grade) tend to break much faster than those from Keener. Alliance now makes a higher grade Mil-Spec Type 2 rubber band in the most common large size that seems to be closer to what Keener supplied. If you choose the Mil-Spec version for the Large size, you are getting Alliance's Pale Crepe Gold Grade, which contains a higher rubber content. The Tandem and Small are only available in the Sterling/standard grade. Here is more info direct from Alliance on the materials and process:

Keener used both natural and synthetic rubber, just as Alliance does. The big difference in Alliance bands verses the bands you bought from Keener is that they used a “steam cure” process and we use a “salt cure." So our bands are not exactly the same as the bands you were getting from Keener. Steam Cure is a slower process and at different temperatures, which creates a different molecular structure. Our Salt Cure is a continuous process, meaning that the bands will continue to cure as they age and this will impact their elasticity over time. Our compounds are also not an exact match to Keener’s. We used the Keener samples that were provided to match as closely as possible to our Sterling Grade Bands, but again, different proprietary compounds. The Mil-Spec bands come in our Pale Crepe Gold Grade, which contains a higher rubber content. But it is more expensive. 

From: https://www.chutingstar.com/rubber-bands-for-parachute-packing

[sheeks 6]

I've ordered the mill-spec ones too, and they stretch an insane amount and then remain stretched out rather than returning to their original size. Not good either

so i guess we're all just kinda fucked then? Lol

[sfzombie13 324]

if they stop stretching after the first time, wrap them three times instead of two.  or two times instead of one.  if they continue to stretch, THEN we're fucked.

[Chiquita 14]

I personally have used tube stows forever and love them, I don't like rubber bands. I know some people say don't like them because they don't break, but I've never had an issue with them where I would need them to break. I think if you put them on so the overlap part (where it joins together) out of the way, there is no reason for them not to work and need to break. Eventually they do wear out and break, but need to be replaced far less often than bands do. The downside is, if you don't have extra and/or at a dz with a gear shop that sells them, then you might be out of luck.

[fcajump 164]

12 hours ago, Chiquita said:

I personally have used tube stows forever and love them, I don't like rubber bands. I know some people say don't like them because they don't break, but I've never had an issue with them where I would need them to break. I think if you put them on so the overlap part (where it joins together) out of the way, there is no reason for them not to work and need to break. Eventually they do wear out and break, but need to be replaced far less often than bands do. The downside is, if you don't have extra and/or at a dz with a gear shop that sells them, then you might be out of luck.

I used tube stows for 15+ years and found them expensive but reliable.
I used Keener bands for 15+ more years and have found them cheaper and reliable.
If the new supplier is not producing quality, I will likely go back to tube stows.  If you're not familiar with them, get with someone who is... I've heard folks that are scared of them, but not seen any reason to be.

DO NOT experiment with solid bands like 'o' rings or castration bands.  Every 5-10 years someone "discovers" them again... the will NOT break when you need them to do so.  

FWIW, when I used tube stows I found that the natural and black lasted well, but the bright colored ones did not (for me)... they looked cool, but wore out quickly.

JW

 

[pchapman 279]

While on the rubber band issue, is there any validity in storing them in the freezer?

I knew one long time DZO who did that regularly for many years, perhaps only stopping because it is inconvenient to keep a whole freezer drawer full of a bunch of 1lb bags of rubber bands, and Keener bands lasted well anyways. Certainly chemical reactions are generally reduced at lower temperatures, leading to less aging. But I don't know if there is any moisture content within the elastics that might cause damage from water crystallization. One might also want to air them out after unfreezing to dry them from any condensed moisture on the outside. 

Just wondering how to best store my last remaining big bag of Keener rubber bands, "my preciousss"...   For now I just keep them in the basement where they are cooler.

[lyosha 50]

Wait, there's seriously only one company that can make skydiving rubber bands?

[Chiquita 14]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:00 AM, fcajump said:

If you're not familiar with them, get with someone who is... I've heard folks that are scared of them, but not seen any reason to be.

FWIW, when I used tube stows I found that the natural and black lasted well, but the bright colored ones did not (for me)... they looked cool, but wore out quickly.

JW

 

I agree with both. I tried colored ones ones, because they look cool, but they do seem to be slightly different and not last as long. And I never understood why people were scared of them, I've heard people say they don't break, which is true they don't break as often as bands, but they will if they need to.

 

I also psycho pack and don't understand why people are afraid of that either. I used to pack tandem and student gear that way, and the TM always said my openings were better. The regular jumpers always liked the openings as well, most said it was the most consistent openings. And my Sabre 1 loves it, she only got me once and I had rushed that pack job so I probably missed something.

To me, it seems that certain new/different things it is like a type of cognitive dissonance, something that they just can't get beyond. With tube stows, 'they don't break' as often or easily as bands, and that is where people get stuck. Psycho pack, it is the 180 flip, 'but you put a line twist in it', even though you flip it back over and can check the lines to make sure it is right. But most people can't get beyond the first flip. It is crazy to me.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

On 9/20/2022 at 4:45 AM, lyosha said:

Wait, there's seriously only one company that can make skydiving rubber bands?

Can make?
No. I'd bet fairly heavily that there are a number of rubber companies that are capable of making them.

Does make? 
Apparently so.
We always have to remember that we are a very small market. Even something like rubber bands, that almost everyone uses, would be a very, very small part of what a rubber factory makes.

[wmw999 2,452]

6 hours ago, Chiquita said:

I also psycho pack and don't understand why people are afraid of that either.

I did until I started jumping a Stiletto. I did find that it opened with a turn far more consistently when I psycho packed it. Now I'm just out of the habit, even though I'm no longer on a Stiletto.

Of course, in the 80's I also side-packed, and got good openings (with a 1/4 turn) from that, too.

Wendy P.

[fcajump 164]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:42 AM, wmw999 said:

I did until I started jumping a Stiletto. I did find that it opened with a turn far more consistently when I psycho packed it. Now I'm just out of the habit, even though I'm no longer on a Stiletto.

Of course, in the 80's I also side-packed, and got good openings (with a 1/4 turn) from that, too.

Wendy P.

As I jump larger than average canopies (210-260s), I got shamed into dropping the side pack.  It was around the time I decided to take a rigging course, so learning to Pro-pack was a needed skill anyway.  1/4 turn was normal here too.

I still split-stow and follow the minimum unstowed line philosophy.  (the later works better with split-stow as there is very little chance of having a line group caught around the reserve container)

JW

 

[sfzombie13 324]

5 hours ago, fcajump said:

It was around the time I decided to take a rigging course, so learning to Pro-pack was a needed skill anyway. 

 

i thought riggers flat packed.  i wasn't aware that it was a needed skill for riggers. 

[gowlerk 2,206]

35 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

i thought riggers flat packed.  i wasn't aware that it was a needed skill for riggers. 

Riggers often pro-pack on the floor. Which is just a technique of pro-packing. It can look like side packing to a non-rigger. It is also how BASE canopies are usually packed.The classic side pack that is often improperly called a flat pack is not done with reserves anymore.

Edited September 22, 2022 by gowlerk

[sfzombie13 324]

i think i heard that before, just one of those things that was a long time ago and isn't talked about much.  thanx for the clarification.

[BMAC615 209]

5 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Riggers often pro-pack on the floor. Which is just a technique of pro-packing. It can look like side packing to a non-rigger. It is also how BASE canopies are usually packed.The classic side pack that is often improperly called a flat pack is not done with reserves anymore.

Most BASE jumpers are stand-up PRO packing now.

[sheeks 6]

On 9/19/2022 at 9:00 AM, fcajump said:

I used tube stows for 15+ years and found them expensive but reliable.
I used Keener bands for 15+ more years and have found them cheaper and reliable.
If the new supplier is not producing quality, I will likely go back to tube stows.  If you're not familiar with them, get with someone who is... I've heard folks that are scared of them, but not seen any reason to be.

DO NOT experiment with solid bands like 'o' rings or castration bands.  Every 5-10 years someone "discovers" them again... the will NOT break when you need them to do so.  

FWIW, when I used tube stows I found that the natural and black lasted well, but the bright colored ones did not (for me)... they looked cool, but wore out quickly.

JW

 

Do you double-wrap your tube stows? Some say not too, but it seems the lines can roll out easily otherwise

[sheeks 6]

It appears the mill-spec bands despite being stretchier than i'm used to, don't seem to break as easy as the others

 

i've ordered a fish scale and if it takes the required 8-12 pounds to undo the stows then i will jump them and see how well they hold up compared to the others

[mtgale00 1]

Whatever happened to the guy at SD Elsinore I think that was selling the black "Skybands"? They worked fine and might've been a bit better than the Keener parachute bands.

[fcajump 164]

On 9/23/2022 at 11:58 AM, sheeks said:

Do you double-wrap your tube stows? Some say not too, but it seems the lines can roll out easily otherwise

I have always doubled wrapped* with both tube stows and rubber bands (note - I refer large bands and use primarily dacron lines).  For the non-closing stows, this make a tremendous difference in the proper holding of the line.

*mostly - I don't usually double wrap my closing stows.  I know PD recommends it and I don't dispute their results...  but with dacron lines and healthy (but not long) bite, I haven't had any issues and tend to have better openings with the single wrap on the closing stows. (knock wood)

 

JW

 

 

[fcajump 164]

On 9/22/2022 at 5:08 PM, sfzombie13 said:

i thought riggers flat packed.  i wasn't aware that it was a needed skill for riggers. 

There are only a few (old) canopies I recall that call for a flat pack .

(Strong Master Reserve uses a variant call the flop pack and at least to forbid using a pro pack)
 

My reserve packs start the same way as a standing Propack, but then transition to a series of floor-based steps to formalize the clearing of the lines and grouping of the folds.  I would describe it as intending to accomplish the same basic thing, but with lots of extra AR steps (on the floor) to ensure you got everything exactly where it should be as this is the last chance.

A true flat pack starts with laying the canopy on one side (nose on one side, tail on the other), then stacking it by line groups. (easier to show than tell).  Often it leads to a 1/4 turn toward the direction the nose was laid down on the floor.

Pro packing was for "proper ram-air (canopy) orientation" to indicate that at all times during the pack job the canopy was oriented properly (with respect to the risers/harness) as opposed to the 1/4 turn needed in a flat pack.

 

(will have to drag out on of my old canopy and see if I still can do it smoothly)

 

JW

 

 

 

 

[kleggo 145]

13 minutes ago, fcajump said:

There are only a few (old) canopies I recall that call for a flat pack .


 

My reserve packs start the same way as a standing Propack, but then transition to a series of floor-based steps to formalize the clearing of the lines and grouping of the folds.  I would describe it as intending to accomplish the same basic thing, but with lots of extra AR steps (on the floor) to ensure you got everything exactly where it should be as this is the last chance.

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like the way I pack for fixed object jumps

I used to flat pack (with clamps), then turn that into a PRO on the floor.

The more i jumped in the mountains, the more I had to do it over my shoulder, lay it down carefully, then clean up as you describe.

 

The black bands fell out of favor 15+ years ago. Too much grip, too little ability to break (Fixed object specific use case)

[fcajump 164]

20 minutes ago, kleggo said:

The black bands fell out of favor 15+ years ago. Too much grip, too little ability to break (Fixed object specific use case)

Black (rubber) bands, or Black tube stows?

WRT tube stows - where are people finding is a good place to get them now?

Has anyone experience with SILIRINGS??
http://www.paragear.com/skydiving/10000168/S9012/SILIRINGS-STOWING-BAND

 

JW

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by fcajump

[Bigfalls 111]

I know someone who years ago used to make his own stow bands out of bicycle inner tubes.  They come in different sizes and he would cut them to the width that he wanted.  I don't know if he still does it but it may be worth a try if we can't get good quality rubber bands any more.

[fcajump 164]

20 minutes ago, Bigfalls said:

I know someone who years ago used to make his own stow bands out of bicycle inner tubes.  They come in different sizes and he would cut them to the width that he wanted.  I don't know if he still does it but it may be worth a try if we can't get good quality rubber bands any more.

I'd want to test the relative elasticity and breaking strength before using them... but would be interesting to see how they stack up.