WARNING, Maximum exit weight. Is it really?

[wmw999 2,439]

Yep, good call. One thing to consider is that you don't have to fly as conservatively if you have a conservative wing loading. You can try a lot more things when you're not as scared.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[degeneration 5]

MAybe worth saying WHERE you got your canopy advice, did your training etc. Maybe a few people on here that know some of hte people that have got you on such unsuitable gear. They'll then be able to find out why.

I got to a 1.6WL after something like 550 jumps (cna't remember exact figure), and I was also criticised by some people for not having the jump number experience for that loading.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Reddog75 0]

I'm not about to call-out anyone on here. I had all the information and made the final decision. In any discussion I never really stressed my actual WL. I attribute it to: complacency, ego and ignorance on my part. It's all good.
Thanks folks.

[Reddog75 0]

"A smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others"

[wmw999 2,439]

Hurts a lot less that way, too
Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mx19 0]

Reddog75

I have decided that up-sizing is in my near future. I have nothing to gain by pushing the envelope and everything to lose. even a brand new rig.

Good choice bro, but can i make one suggestion? Make upsizing the very next thing you do before you jump again, honestly you never know but the next jump could be the one you turn low on and it'll be a lot better if you have upsized.

Nice to see someone take the critisism on board. In the long run you will be a much better canopy pilot for it (and not hobble as much, chicks don't dig it as much as we'd like to think )

Take it slow, enjoy the ride, learn to fly the shitout of the canopy you get.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Here are some readings that you might find helpful about canopy choice and canopy control.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

Highly suggest that you read all 22 pages of the following. Many of these drills will be helpful to you.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Also HIGHLY suggest that you follow the manufacturer's recommendations for canopy size by experience. Most canopy makers publish tables of canopy sizes by experience. Note that sometimes the recommendations for reserves are larger than the recommendations for mains. This accounts for the differneces in design and construction between the main and reserve. You will find that if you are following the recommendations by experience... the "MAX" weights become essentially irrelevant.

I highly recommend the #101, 102, & 103 Flight-1 canopy courses as well.

http://flight-1.com/

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[kallend 2,026]

Let's not forget that the data placard says "Maximum exit weight", not "Maximum exit weight for someone with 80 jumps".

So while his WL is high for someone with 80 jumps, it doesn't really address the question he asked.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[alec86 0]

come on guys give the dude a break, he's only after his free SoFPiDaRF T-shirt

well back to the serious side take heed of what others are saying there is a lot of experience and knowledge on here.



SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying... check out the facebook page

Spank the

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

I figured its just a liability thing and have 12 jumps on it anyway.

You might call it like that. That can be also a warning that flying and landing characteristics of your canopy might not be as designed.

I would not exceed the maximum deployment speed indicated on the very same card.

[Andy9o8 2]

kallend

Let's not forget that the data placard says "Maximum exit weight", not "Maximum exit weight for someone with 80 jumps".

So while his WL is high for someone with 80 jumps, it doesn't really address the question he asked.

Maybe so, but sometimes subjects compel themselves, and "The witness will simply answer the question asked" is not always the best policy. Like when your 10 year old kid calls up from the basement: "Dad, how close can a can of paint thinner get to a burning candle without blowing up?", a responsible reaction on Dad's part should probably be something more than just calling back down, "Oh, I'd say about 30 feet should do it."

[wildcard451 0]

kallend

Let's not forget that the data placard says "Maximum exit weight", not "Maximum exit weight for someone with 80 jumps".

So while his WL is high for someone with 80 jumps, it doesn't really address the question he asked.

It depends on canopy type as far as performance goes.

Competitors routinely jump cross-braced canopies well over placarded maximums. There does come a point of diminishing returns north of 2.8-2.9 or so where performance falls off dramatically (so I've been told, 2.72 has been my max WL on a Velo, and it flies wonderfully)

[mr2mk1g 10]

Interesting linked question is what's the max exit weight listed for the reserve and has that been exceeded and if so what is the implications on TSO etc...

Or do we not want to re-open that old thread?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Reddog75

I don't want to argue the point but help me understand:Please explain the flight characteristics of an 'extremely' WL pilot 168.

It turns quickly and accelerates towards the ground when you pull on one toggle whether or not that's best for the situation

Quote

High openings, conservative set up and landings. I haven't felt scared on no-wind days and do fine, I just come in fast.

A long final approach straight into the wind landing in a wide open grassy field is absurdly easy.

It doesn't get difficult until you have to correct problems like making a low 90 degree turn to avoid power lines for a down-wind landing on an asphalt road on the sunset load after cute chicks flashed the pilot for extra altitude, some one in the group got hypoxic and caught their foot on a seatbelt for a long climb out and long spot, and with the low light the power lines went unnoticed until the last second.

If you don't have a history making out landings with low turns to avoid obstacles you don't know how you'll do and shouldn't be jumping that canopy.

If you do you have bad judgement and shouldn't be jumping that canopy.

Expert advise here is Brian Germain's (xx,xxx skydives, designs parachutes, teaches canopy flight professionally around the world, studied psychology in school and writes about sports psych, etc.) 1.0 + .1 (about; there are adjustments for higher elevations) pound per square foot per 100 jumps Wingloading Never Exceed formula to provide time to learn skills, develop muscle memory, and have an acceptable psychological arousal level when dealing with problems.

Quote

I take learning how to really fly this canopy seriously.

You've been making front riser landings (you can unintentionally add speed and need to be ready for it), 180 degree flat turns from 50 feet off the ground, steering around obstacles after plane-out, making cross-wind landings, landing down-wind, landing up and down-hill, etc?

And done the same on each of the previous sizes before down-sizing?

If the answer is "no" you aren't taking learning to fly that canopy very seriously at all.

[JackC1 0]

DrewEckhardt

If you don't have a history making out landings with low turns to avoid obstacles you don't know how you'll do and shouldn't be jumping that canopy.

One could argue that having a history of making out landings and low turns is a good argument that you shouldn't be jumping until you have a good long think about why you so frequently fuck up your flight plan and/or spot.

[Lazarus_762 0]

rwieder

Quote

Why are you jumping such a high wingloading? (assuming your jump numbers are correct)

I thought about asking him that same question, but didn't for fear of being lambasted one way or another.

Best-
Richard

that was my immediate thought, too...trips to the emergency room suck - BTDT. I am jumping a very conservative WL of 1:1, and still dug a hole like Wiley Coyote. If I had been flying at a WL of 1.6, and had to do a no-flare, full-speed PLF, I would have busted all sorts of bones...

in my humble opinion, your biggest danger to yourself is the complacency you mentioned. We jokingly say, "What could possibly go wrong?", but we should never forget that all sorts of shit can go wrong, and being complacent while jumping gear that is beyond your skill level is a damn good way to become a broken sack of meat with no pulse.

Reading about yourself in the Incidents section of Parachutist magazine is bad enough - being too dead to read about yourself would really suck.

Airtwardo:"There is a bit of difference between a rigger with a nipper and a guy with 138 jumps and a swiss army knife...usually!"

[Pablo.Moreno 0]

Reddog75

Hey all,
Maybe some one can ease my mind a little on this.
My Pilot 168 says on the warning label "Maximum exit weight 269 lb.". I'm right on the cusp of this if not over. Should I worry about this? or the 1.6 WL?
I figured its just a liability thing and have 12 jumps on it anyway.

I think 1.6 should be the limit on the canopy WL (it is not recommended to go anything beyond that if you read the manufacture), I jumped a Pilot 117 loaded at 2.0 and at the end of the flare I would always stall it on high winds and no winds, the turns were quick and harness was really responsive, but still really reliable opening as this canopy is known to have.

but that high of wingloading at your jump number is pretty risky and if things go wrong it would go pretty fast, and with the lack of experience you might end up burning yourself.

[riggerrob 643]

***Bear in mind that it is quite likely that your harness and reserve also have the same maximum weight limit.

..................................................................................

Most skydiving harnesses are only certified for 254 pounds.

This troll is a laugh a minute!
Hah!
Hah!

[craddock 0]

JackC1

***If you don't have a history making out landings with low turns to avoid obstacles you don't know how you'll do and shouldn't be jumping that canopy.

One could argue that having a history of making out landings and low turns is a good argument that you shouldn't be jumping until you have a good long think about why you so frequently fuck up your flight plan and/or spot.

And you could easily lose that argument. Off landings happen. Hell I love them but whatever. Late diver on a large formation jump and you are going to stop and check the spot? Cross country? Change in winds at last minute? Low turns save lives. I don't think Drew meant to imply history as in a problem.(he has a history of being a dumbass) I think he meant it more like experience (He has had some off landings in his history of jumping that he handled with no panic and clear thinking)

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[riggerrob 643]

Big parachutes are less expensive than big medical bills.

[riggerrob 643]

My worst "out landing" missed a target the size of West Germany. I had to walk back from France!
Can anyone beat my incompetence?

The story includes a long spot motivated by "honking" upper winds, a DZ less than a kilometer from the border, etc..

[yoink 321]

Lazarus_762

Reading about yourself in the Incidents section of Parachutist magazine is bad enough - being too dead to read about yourself would really suck.

Nope. That's if you get lucky.

What REALLY sucks is being paralyzed for the rest of your life because of the decisions you made. Dying is not the worst outcome in this sport...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4203276;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

And that was at a wingloading of just over 1.2

Reddog - read that thread and it's associated links. It's sadly a good lessons-learned archive.

Glad you're going to upsize. Have fun, but make smart decisions!

[katzas 1]

Reddog75

Aww come'on, it went like this:
23 landings on a student 270
43 landings on a 190
13 landings on the 168
I'm not doing 270 swoops and don't have a problem with landings.
Sure, I gained a few pounds over winter at the same time as down sizing but I expect to fly this canopy a long time.

OH!! And here I was......worried. Silly me. 80 jumps and a WL of 1.6. Can I watch?

Now that I have the sarcasm out of the way......for god's sake do yourself a huge favor and upsize before you strap that rig on again. I did an unintentional low turn on final on a bloody 260 Navigator with a WL of about 0.7 (toggle slipped out of my hand--stupid) and thumped myself into the ground so hard that I heard bells and saw stars. With a WL of 1.6 the chances are pretty good that I would also have heard the snapping of both legs. Take it seriously--it's serious shit.

[Quagmirian 40]

Lazarus_762

I am jumping a very conservative WL of 1:1...

Depending on your jump numbers, skills and exit weight, and 1:1 loading is not necessarily anywhere near 'very conservative' at all.

[JackC1 0]

craddock

And you could easily lose that argument. Off landings happen. Hell I love them but whatever.

Late diver on a large formation jump and you are going to stop and check the spot?

Then whoever was spotting needs to get their shit sorted. You aren't spotting for yourself, you're spotting for the entire load.

craddock

Cross country?

Then you bit off more than you could chew and need to re-evaluate your abilities

craddock

Change in winds at last minute?

That would have to be a significant change, but OK.

craddock

Low turns save lives.

Low turns are probably the largest single factor contributing to fatalities in skydiving today.

An occasional out landing is inevitable but if you land out so frequently that you get a history of it, then I reckon that should be an indicator that you're doing something wrong. Apparently you think landing out in random places at regular intervals is fun. Good for you.