willhill 0 #26 February 21, 2006 Big oops. Meant 1000ft, of course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #27 February 21, 2006 Cant say i didnt learn anything new today then1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #28 February 21, 2006 >>When people get really scared, they go deaf, making audible altimeters useless. << So it is true what I heard about billyvance calling Chuck Norris a pansy... ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thepollster 0 #29 February 21, 2006 QuoteI disagree. I've bought my Pro-track about #31. I had a total mal right after that, so I've heard the siren. So by that, you are saying you would have had an AAD fire or bounced, because you are not altitude aware without a toy. What if the batteries died during that jump? That is device dependecy, and exactly why most experienced people recommend more jumps without an audible after AFF. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jasonRose 0 #30 February 21, 2006 Quote A little angel on my shoulder going "pssst!" time to check alti... I havent read threw this thread but I can only guess that this may be said already. During my AFF days my intructors told me no audible until A. I thought my instructors were full of shit at the time but looking back I am so glad they never let me jump one during student status. All your questions will be answered with time grasshoper, trust your instructors and on your next jump you be the one that is looking at your alti going "Pssst, it's time to pull now". Stay safe Bra.... Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #31 February 21, 2006 QuoteSo by that, you are saying you would have had an AAD fire or bounced, because you are not altitude aware without a toy. What if the batteries died during that jump? That is device dependecy, and exactly why most experienced people recommend more jumps without an audible after AFF. Doesn't anybody agree that having the final tone only enabled is a good thing? How can you not want a device to assist in getting the attention of a student that has already failed in altitude awareness?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #32 February 21, 2006 >How can you not want a device to assist in getting the attention of a >student that has already failed in altitude awareness? That part of it is good; reliance upon it (either consciously or unconsciously) is bad. If you are going to use an audible you have to explain how it works and drill them i.e. "Here is the sound it makes. When you hear it, pull. Now let's practice." That _can_ lead to a jumper making the mental connection "my audible will be my last warning; it will sound before I get too low." Which is one argument for waiting a bit after you finish AFF before getting one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #33 February 21, 2006 Quote>How can you not want a device to assist in getting the attention of a >student that has already failed in altitude awareness? That part of it is good; reliance upon it (either consciously or unconsciously) is bad. If you are going to use an audible you have to explain how it works and drill them i.e. "Here is the sound it makes. When you hear it, pull. Now let's practice." That _can_ lead to a jumper making the mental connection "my audible will be my last warning; it will sound before I get too low." Which is one argument for waiting a bit after you finish AFF before getting one. I would think the training would go something like, "we will be able to see (even if you can't actually - as in the case of the opening altitude already recorded) if you needed to be reminded by the screaming in your ear, you'd better not wait that long or you'll face a lot of retraining, repeated levels...". Students already lose altitude awareness, I think it would be an overall positive.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #34 February 22, 2006 Aren't we already training students to be device dependent to determine their hard deck for low speed mals? We train them to use their visual altimeter, don't we?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #35 February 22, 2006 Quote**De-Lurk** From a non-instructors Point of View - I wouldn't want a Student to jump with an Audible as they may develop a reliance on the Audible rather than their visual alti/own perceptions. **Re-Lurk** What about an audible set at the student's hard deck? They should've pulled long before then, so reliance wouldn't be an issue, but an audible shrieking in their ear may prevent a cypres fire or remind a student to stop fussing with a mal and chop the thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brabzzz 0 #36 March 8, 2006 I also did the whole losing alti awareness thing during AFF. On L2, with the same consequences. Made me paranoid and altitude obsessed for quiet a while, which is a lot better than becoming dytter dependent... ...like I am now.... The whole internal clock thing works pretty well too after a while - there's that 'feeling' at about 5/6k that playtimes coming to an end soon. --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #37 March 10, 2006 I would not let you jump an Audible will off Student Status. You need to learn to look at your altimeter, not just wait for a beep to tell you to pull."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexadecimal 0 #38 March 10, 2006 What happens if your audible battery goes dead or it just fails to work for whatever reason? What if you just don't hear it? Wait until you're off student status and capable of being altitude aware without electronic assistance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #39 March 10, 2006 How about student with audible and warning for hard deck only? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dzjohn 0 #40 March 10, 2006 Hey , I always had a audible on even when I was doing my aff, My instructor always told me that if I heard it during free fall I've stuffed up and probably have to redo that level as well cause i've lost altitude awareness. Up till now I've only heard itwhen the canopy is just opening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #41 March 10, 2006 You are not suppose to hear the 600m warning during AFF at all(with Pro-Track or Neptune). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #42 March 10, 2006 When I first tested an audible (flashing LED, since I am deaf) beyond my 115th jump, I noticed I was never dependent on them. But I will get one anyway for bigway use this year. My instructors told me it was a bad thing to have an audible too early because I would become dependent on it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #43 March 10, 2006 I have mine since jump nr 32. I would jump without it. Honestly I had only one jump without it: it was a water jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #44 March 10, 2006 QuoteYou are not suppose to hear the 600m warning during AFF at all(with Pro-Track or Neptune). The warnings are adjustable, not fixed at 600m. Instructors that do provide them to students may have them set higher. How can a student become dependent on something when the device should not do anything - set only for the hard deck.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #45 March 11, 2006 Quote That _can_ lead to a jumper making the mental connection "my audible will be my last warning; it will sound before I get too low." And it would be up to the instructor to avoid that and get the following etched in the students brain: "My audible could or could not be my last warning; it may or may not sound before I get to low. Now that doesn't look fundamentally different from what instructors tell students about the wonderful workings of AAD's and the benefits of pulling yourself in time... (In fact, if I look inside an old dytter I see something remarkably similar to what I see inside an altimeter or a barometer...) Since no AFF student prior to the first jump already has developed a mental clock / knowledge what the world looks like at their pull altitude, AFF instructors tell AFF students that - for the time being - they should believe what the gadget says when "the time/space continuum gets distorted". In fact, conciously reading the altimeter and shouting /mimicing the altitude to one of the instructors is built into the program. If your brain temporarily looses the connection with your eye and you only produce a blank stare, apparently having no idea what the dial says, most instructors will let you redo that level... Is there anybody that does 'circles of awareness' and lets the student look at the ground and shout / mimic his best 'guesstimate' to the instructor? I don't think so. They are supposed to look at their altimeter as the primary source of altitude information. And although most instructors during briefings also try to build some 'time awareness' into their student so that they at least start with some notion about how long it takes before they will be at their opening altitude, you don't see the students counting or gaze at a chronometer and without doing that no one really has any idea how long 'half a minute' takes... An extra gadget, whatever the limitations may be, could help the student to start a bit more relaxed with the task at hand. Most of us who do use a beeper and use it in the way it should be used, know the triumphant feeling of looking up at your slider coming down, just as the beeps start. We are not supposed to hear it in freefall, prior to separation, prior to getting back 'belly to earth', etcetera... If the instructor is smart enough to understand why this is so, and his students are smart enough to make a skydive anyway, it shouldn't be that hard to get this across, during the ground preparation. IMO when there's nothing wrong with loud beeps for experienced skydivers 500ft below the planned altitude where they should have started to do something (separate, stop working, get belly to earth, pull, whatever..), you might as well incorporate it in the basic training where you have adequate time and attention to explain the benefits and the limitations... If audibles were such an evil thing during AFF, you would never see an AFF instructor ('teaching by example') wear one. The reality is, however, that a lot (if not most) of them use audibles themselves, often set at the 'must get student under canopy' altitude... A student that hears vague beeps in freefall while he is supposed to only hear them loudly on opening / already under canopy will have no problem with the fact that he has to redo this level and just like the rest of us, will apriciate the wake-up call, for this wake-up call beats the one he might get from the AAD that - though a bit more sophisticated - fundamentally works the same and is also part of his student equipment... Of course, once licenced, some students will ignore all the warnings about dead batteries, height induced deafness or simply forgetting the gadget and develop 'device dependency'. But that is not different from students that were taught to inspect their gear prior to putting it on, prior to boarding and prior to exit and yet end up in freefall with uncocked pilotchutes, cutaway pads folded under their webbing or cheststraps not routed properly. Just my $ 0,02... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #46 March 11, 2006 QuoteAnd it would be up to the instructor to avoid that and get the following etched in the students brain: "My audible could or could not be my last warning; it may or may not sound before I get to low. Quite right. If students know that the data from the audible can be downloaded, it is possible to have an extra way to prevent dependency, because you can confirm whether they actually waited for the warning to pull or cutaway. It can be firmly put into the student's mind that they had better not wait for the tone, because the instructor will be able to know. What more could an instructor want?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #47 March 11, 2006 QuoteHow about student with audible and warning for hard deck only? Nope. Builds dependancy. "If I forget, it will warn me"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #48 March 11, 2006 >And it would be up to the instructor to avoid that and get the >following etched in the students brain: >"My audible could or could not be my last warning; it may or may >not sound before I get to low." Right. And I have no doubt that you _can_ etch it in his brain. The problem arises when something other than their brain is used during the jump. You can tell an experienced jumper to use one-hand-per-handle on his new Javelin, and he may well say "OK." But if he has a mal, he will likely revert to his previous training and use both hands. Or take a jumper switching from ROL to BOC. He may decide beforehand that he's fine with it. Of course he knows it's different! But unless he drills the new location, he will likely reach for his ROL when it comes time to pull. Or reserve handle pulls. I know several experienced jumpers (including two AFF-I's who teach this stuff every weekend) who have decided that if they ever get below 1000 feet they are going straight for their reserve. One even practiced it (once) before going up on the fateful Lost Prairie 4-way. When they got low, they both went for their mains. Why did they do what they were used to, instead of what was etched in their brains? Because your body remembers better than your brain does. Students do what they practice, not what you tell them to do. Thus there is a danger in using that audible during student training in the way described here (i.e. drill them over and over "pull when you hear this!") - because when the shit hits the fan, they may revert to what they trained to do, and wait to pull until they hear that. Now, this danger can be ameliorated somewhat by doubling the number of runthroughs, some with audible, but most without. That way they get used to the idea that they will have to pull without hearing it. But just as some students cut away from good canopies if they don't get enough "good canopy" training, you run the risk of "waiting for the beep" if they don't get enough no-beep training. That's the first jump. After that, students that have the audible go off and 'save' them by making them pull _are_ going to become more dependent on it, because a) they know it saved them and b) they got that experience under real-world conditions, when their reflexes are most open to learning. Now, do all these problems mean that they are hazards to students? I don't think so. I'm sure there's a way to use them safely, with increased training time and more drilling. But what problem are they solving? How do we justify the increased training required and complexity in equipment? Are students going in because they don't pull on time? Not that I've seen. Would they have to repeat fewer levels? From everything people here have said, use of audibles would either not affect or increase repeated levels. And you would graduate students who MAY have an increased dependency on a device. So I guess I just don't see the benefit overall. I mean, no one has a problem 'learning' how to use an audible after graduation. To me, that seems like a better time to do that learning - after altitude awareness without it has been demonstrated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #49 March 11, 2006 Bill, The examples you give on why it is a bad thing, all have to do with experienced people making a 'conscious effort' to retrain themselves and then in the jump routine takes over. (new EP's, different location of PC, different drill when in the basement...); where is the practice (and therefore the build up of the wrong routine) in showing the gadget, letting hear the sound twice (LOUD: "this is what you DO want to hear, under canopy & MUFFLED: "this is what you DON'T want to hear, in freefall...") and telling it's the back up's back up... If all goes according to plan it is either: 1. Student hears loud beeps as he reaches for his toggles. 2. Student hears loud beeps as you pull him. If he hears them in freefall, well, he just might interpret them the way most of us do when we hear an alarming sound... There IS no routine for the beginners and I'm not suggesting to build one, especially if it is the wrong routine. Drilling students to 'pull when they hear the audible' is a bad idea, yet paradoxically when they are turning on their back and wrestling to become stable at 2500ft and for some reason it is the AFF instructors ultimate bad hair day, loud beeps might just divert their attention from stability towards handles... And the same student you let go in the world, freshly graduated, who sees everybody routinely jump with audibles, will want one for himself and in your absence he may develop precisely the wrong attitude with it. Once he has learned from you that 'pulling on the audible sound' (i.e. pulling on time) means that he has to redo a level the routine will become "must pull BEFORE the beep otherwise one more expensive redo jump" Given that you stated how hard it is to break routines, I find it hard to see the harm in that. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agent_lead 0 #50 March 15, 2006 i bought a skytronix gfx around jump # 15..i wore it on my right wrist and my regular alti on my my left... i never felt the need to use it for the beep...i just wanted a log of my jumps...untill while in eloy..i was doing a coach jump and tracked away pretty low adn didnt look at my alti untill i saw the ground coming up really fast....ended up in the saddle at 1900 it was pretty scary for me...since that jump i kept it in my helmet just as a reminder..-------------------------------------------- www.facebook.com/agentlead Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
