Christians don’t believe in Democracy

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/29/2023 at 7:48 PM, jakee said:

You think you know me better than I know myself and you call that humble?

Then why didn’t you cite that as the best reason for not believing? Your god hasn’t changed my heart.

He would if you ever got over yourself.

[kallend 2,106]

  On 8/29/2023 at 7:22 PM, jaybird18c said:

Yeah...you see lots of christians running around killing folks over their faith. 

A fairly recent development in the 2,000 year history of torture and killing by Christians..

 

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/29/2023 at 7:53 PM, kallend said:

A fairly recent development in the 2,000 year history of torture and killing by Christians..

 

I'm not saying people throughout history haven't killed each other for countless reasons including religion, even in the name of christianity. What I'm saying is that you don't see many christians running around killing others over their faith. It's just a stupid generalization. But those seem to be in generous supply here.

Edited August 29, 2023 by jaybird18c

[gowlerk 2,246]

  On 8/29/2023 at 7:42 PM, jaybird18c said:

Here's an example, regardless of Catholic/Protestant, regardless of denomination. Jesus is the Son of God. The deity of Jesus Christ is a historical, fundamental, and essential belief included in what it means to be christian. A mormon does not believe in the deity of Christ. Therefore, they would be considered as a christian cult. That's just a classification. I mean, they and others calls themselves christian. However, they don't believe in a fundamental aspect of what a biblical christian believes. Anyone can call themselves anything they want. It doesn't make them that thing.

A person calls themselves a skydiver and hangs out at the DZ. But if they don't own or can borrow a rig to jump. Are they really a skydiver?

Yup, exactly as I thought.

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/29/2023 at 8:03 PM, gowlerk said:

Yup, exactly as I thought.

If you say you're something, but you're missing a key component of what that something is, are you still that something just because you identify with or feel like you're that something?

[jakee 1,558]

  On 8/29/2023 at 7:51 PM, jaybird18c said:

He would if you ever got over yourself.

I hat makes you say that? Clearly you never did - but you say he sorted you out. In fact, you literally just said it was the other way around for you - god first, humble second.  

So why one rule for you and one rule for everyone else? Are you really that special?

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/29/2023 at 8:13 PM, jakee said:

I hat makes you say that? Clearly you never did - but you say he sorted you out. In fact, you literally just said it was the other way around for you - god first, humble second.  

So why one rule for you and one rule for everyone else? Are you really that special?

Just two true statements from different perspectives. 

The command from our perspective is to "repent and believe" (Mark 1:15).

But is anyone "willing" to believe apart from an act of God? I say no.

From God's perspective, as with Ezekiel's vision in the valley of dry bones,

They will remain dead unless God breathes life into them.

Edited August 29, 2023 by jaybird18c

[normiss 846]

  On 8/29/2023 at 7:22 PM, jaybird18c said:

Yeah...you see lots of christians running around killing folks over their faith. 

Historically, that is true. 

[JoeWeber 2,810]

  On 8/29/2023 at 7:01 PM, jaybird18c said:

Muslims who die for their faith are obviously convinced and committed. I'm not arguing against that. However, I would say that they probably wouldn't die for their cause if they knew it to be false. Likewise, Christian martyrs also would not have died for what they knew was false or a lie. They knew It was true. They and over 500 others witnessed it. They died heinous deaths because they refused to deny it. That gives credibility and reason to believe.

 

"Chuck Colson, former special counsel to President Nixon and founder of Prison Fellowship, said that when the Watergate scandal broke, he and 11 other men—some of the toughest and most powerful in the world—met secretly, came up with a story, and swore to maintain it.

But these powerful men broke. Quickly.

Colson said,

I know the resurrection is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How? Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it. Everyone was beaten, tortured, stoned, and put in prison. They would not have endured that if it weren’t true. Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world—and they couldn’t keep a lie for three weeks. You’re telling me 12 apostles could keep a lie for 40 years? Absolutely impossible."

And that is irrefutable proof? You know, convincing evidence of the type that a rational person would reorganize their life as an immediate response? Jay, surely you can at least understand why that seems preposterous to so many.

[normiss 846]

  On 8/29/2023 at 7:29 PM, gowlerk said:

Yes sure. Except that if you don't agree with them you will simply say that they are not "REAL" christians. History is full of sectarian hatred. Your nation was at least partly settled by persecuted sects. This is why your constitution forbids government sanction of religion. Are Christian Scientists Christian? Are Mormons Christian? They would say they are, would you agree? 

My current favorite is the LDS. Some of the documentaries and movies about that insanity are freaking bizarre.

[gowlerk 2,246]

  On 8/29/2023 at 8:39 PM, normiss said:

My current favorite is the LDS. Some of the documentaries and movies about that insanity are freaking bizarre.

And yet despite the theology they seem to have organized into an admirable society. That's one of the reasons I don't really care one way or the other what a person like Jay or Ron believes. It is really no more or less a fantasy than the LDS fantasy. All I care about is how a person or group behaves. Not their beliefs, their actions. And waving their flag in my face is an offensive action if done more than once.

[jakee 1,558]

  On 8/29/2023 at 8:23 PM, jaybird18c said:

Just two true statements from different perspectives. 

It’s just two completely different statements.

  On 8/29/2023 at 8:23 PM, jaybird18c said:

But is anyone "willing" to believe apart from an act of God? I say no.

Did you mean to start explaining to me exactly why I shouldn’t believe in god, or did you just get stuck halfway through this argument?

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/29/2023 at 9:12 PM, gowlerk said:

And yet despite the theology they seem to have organized into an admirable society. That's one of the reasons I don't really care one way or the other what a person like Jay or Ron believes. It is really no more or less a fantasy than the LDS fantasy. All I care about is how a person or group behaves. Not their beliefs, their actions. And waving their flag in my face is an offensive action if done more than once.

There seem to be a lot of things  “in your face” all the time. Theology is just all up in your face, isn’t it? That’s rough man. 

[gowlerk 2,246]

  On 8/29/2023 at 9:19 PM, jaybird18c said:

There seem to be a lot of things  “in your face” all the time. Theology is just all up in your face, isn’t it? That’s rough man. 

You again with the silly hostility? Life's been good to me so far. I'm sure it's the power of my god. She is awesome.

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/29/2023 at 9:23 PM, gowlerk said:

You again with the silly hostility? Life's been good to me so far. I'm sure it's the power of my god. She is awesome.

No hostility. Just trying to show empathy. It’s got to be hard when all that free speech is up in your face all the time. It’s even worse when it’s shoved down your throat!

Edited August 29, 2023 by jaybird18c

[gowlerk 2,246]

  On 8/29/2023 at 9:27 PM, jaybird18c said:

No hostility. Just trying to show empathy. It’s got to be hard when all that free speech is up in your face all the time. 

Free speech is a wonderful thing. But that doesn't stop annoying speech from being annoying.You are far from being the worst offender. You are nowhere near making my killfile.

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/29/2023 at 9:30 PM, gowlerk said:

Free speech is a wonderful thing. But that doesn't stop annoying speech from being annoying.You are far from being the worst offender. You are nowhere near making my killfile.

Well…that’s accomplishing something then!

[normiss 846]

  On 8/29/2023 at 9:27 PM, jaybird18c said:

No hostility. Just trying to show empathy. It’s got to be hard when all that free speech is up in your face all the time. It’s even worse when it’s shoved down your throat!

Can't even buy a bottle of whiskey on Sunday. God dammit.

[winsor 236]

  On 8/29/2023 at 7:22 PM, jaybird18c said:

Yeah...you see lots of christians running around killing folks over their faith. 

Historically speaking, an awful lot of people have been killed in the name of the Magic Jewish Zombie.

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/29/2023 at 11:03 PM, winsor said:

Historically speaking, an awful lot of people have been killed in the name of the Magic Jewish Zombie.

An awful amount of people were killed in the name of secularism.

[winsor 236]

  On 8/29/2023 at 11:17 PM, jaybird18c said:

An awful amount of people were killed in the name of secularism.

Secular psychopaths do not typically kill in the 'name of secularism.'

Delusional religious types routinely and explicitly kill in the name of their particular invisible friend.

By all means feel free to demonstrate the fact that the distinction is lost on you.

[gowlerk 2,246]

  On 8/29/2023 at 11:17 PM, jaybird18c said:

An awful amount of people were killed in the name of secularism.

There definitely was violent suppression aimed towards “the opioid of the masses”.

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/29/2023 at 11:23 PM, winsor said:

Secular psychopaths do not typically kill in the 'name of secularism.'

Delusional religious types routinely and explicitly kill in the name of their particular invisible friend.

By all means feel free to demonstrate the fact that the distinction is lost on you.

“some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history categorize only 123 as being religious in nature. This is only 6.98% of all wars. The percentage is less than half that, at 3.23%, if you subtract those waged in the name of Islam (66). The relationship between religion and war, which skeptics have depicted, is in stark contrast to the facts. Despite this reality, people like Richard Dawkins, who in his book The God Delusion, claim that without religion there would be no labels by which to decide whom to oppress and whom to avenge. Critics of religion continue to make such claims which allude to religion as the ultimate factor responsible for world oppression and violence, and in doing so seem to insinuate that it in some way has anything to do with the coherence of the religious view. Still, it is clear that religion has not played a significant role in most of the world’s wars, though even if it had, that fact would be irrelevant in trying to prove a religious viewpoint false.”

 

“secular reasoning and naturalistic philosophies have actually been involved in the most bloodshed. The number of people who perished in religious conflicts pales in comparison to the slaughter and butchery which has taken place under non-religious leaders. Ideas have consequences, and in the 20^th century they contributed to the democide of an unprecedented number of people. Russia’s communist USSR gave rise to both Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Illich Lenin whom murdered 42,672,000 and 4,017,000, China’s communist Mao Tse-tung and militarist/fascist Chiang Kai-sheck whom murdered 37,828,000 and 10,214,000, communist Cambodia’s Pol Pot whom murdered 2,397,000, Germany’s fascist Adolf Hitler whom murdered 20,946,000, and Imperial Japan’s militarist/fascist Tojo Hideki whom murdered 3,990,000. From 1917 to 1987, in a span of under 70 years, roughly 121,332,000 human beings were murdered by these government regimes.”

 

https://blogs.uoregon.edu/dylanjtjohnson/2016/04/21/has-religion-been-a-chief-cause-of-wars-throughout-history/

[wmw999 2,521]

When you look for justification for a point you can usually find it. Looking for data is different -- that's when you let the data drive the conclusion, rather than looking for data to support your point.

Wendy P.

[jaybird18c 24]

  On 8/30/2023 at 2:12 AM, wmw999 said:

When you look for justification for a point you can usually find it. Looking for data is different -- that's when you let the data drive the conclusion, rather than looking for data to support your point.

Wendy P.

But we just KNOW that most wars and deaths were because of religious zealots though, right!