Christians don’t believe in Democracy

[kallend 2,099]

5 hours ago, jaybird18c said:

There has never been a person rejected by God who repented and placed their faith in Jesus Christ, whatever their circumstance or perceived experience.

How do you know this?  I think you just parrot what you're told by the hierarchy.

It's all mumbo-jumbo and if you were honest you'd admit it to yourself.

[winsor 236]

8 hours ago, jaybird18c said:

There has never been a person rejected by God who repented and placed their faith in Jesus Christ, whatever their circumstance or perceived experience.

If you did the tiniest bit of research, you'd find that nothing that you claim has any solid basis.

You speak of "The Bible" as though it is monolithic - a contention that is patently false.  'The Book' originally referred to Devarim ('Deuteronomy) until Ezra the Scribe attached the four prequel texts, Bereshit, Shemoth, Vayiqura and Bamidbar at the end of the Babylonian exile to give us the Torah.

Over rather a long time a variety of books were added, becoming Nevi'im and Ketuvim, which round out the Hebrew Scriptures.

Now we get to the addenda generated on a different continent, in different languages, by people with no understanding of family traditions.  Since we hold the copyright on the original, the 'New' and 'Old' nomenclature is inappropriate.  'Scarlett' was similarly touted as the further adventures of the 'Gone with the Wind' saga, though unauthorized, by a different author with different agenda.

The first four of these books use the Tanakh as a claim to legitimacy, and were written for a Roman audience.  They reference Isaiah to claim messianic status - Matthew and Luke even start of with paternal lineage to verify the lineage of being the first born of the House of David, which doesn't fly without having a perfectly normal family tree.  The hero of the story is given a Roman name (there is no 'j' in Hebrew or Aramaic) and his family is blamed for his being executed in accordance with Roman law (nothing suspicious about that...). 

Even a passing evaluation of the claims made over the centuries by 'Christian' sources show all of them to be politically motivated tripe.  Credo quia absurdum is the basis of the whole system of belief (don't feel alone, Islam, LDS, Scientology et al. every bit as bad).

One is tasked to 'respect' all religions, which I suppose is good advice.  One should similarly respect Brown Bears in that failing to take into consideration their basic nature has historically resulted in people being made dead in short order.

Many a Rabbi, when asked if, say, Adam was 'created' knowing how to keep track of the date, the significance of his age, and so forth might roll their eyes and say "Bubbie, it's Bronze Age family lore - don't read too much into it.  It gives us the basis of our calendar, so take it for what it's worth."

The Children of Israel are one big, dysfunctional family.  The universal religions that use the Tanakh as a basis consist of wannabes whose perception of the underpinnings of their faith is born of consummate ignorance.

 

As you were,

Winsor

Edited August 27, 2023 by winsor

[kallend 2,099]

1 hour ago, winsor said:

..

Many a Rabbi, when asked if, say, Adam was 'created' knowing how to keep track of the date, the significance of his age, and so forth might roll their eyes and say "Bubbie, it's Bronze Age family lore - don't read too much into it.  It gives us the basis of our calendar, so take it for what it's worth."

The Children of Israel are one big, dysfunctional family.  The universal religions that use the Tanakh as a basis consist of wannabes whose perception of the underpinnings of their faith is born of consummate ignorance.

 

As you were,

Winsor

Or to put it more succinctly, mumbo-jumbo combined with a good dose of hocus-pocus.

[jaybird18c 24]

11 hours ago, kallend said:

Funny how the OT god was all vengeance and jealousy, who would smite people (or populations) down for the slightest infractions (after all, what sin did the Egyptian firstborn commit that they all had to be killed, for just one example). 

Then the OT god must have had sessions with a therapist and became all lovey dovey in the NT.  Love thy neighbor. . . , he who is without sin. . . etc.

Or maybe it's just multiple personality disorder.

Then again maybe it's all mumbo-jumbo.

God is not vengeful and jealous as we are vengeful and jealous. What he does is always righteous. A problem people have is that they think they are like God. We are certainly made in his image, but that's where it ends. That said, the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. The difference in action has to do with the difference in covenant. The Bible is a progressive revelation of God's plan of salvation for his people, ultimately revealed in Jesus Christ. Great patience is currently being extended allowing people to come to their senses. Justice being delayed, if you will. If God exacted upon each of us the penalty for lawlessness which we fully deserve, he would end us where we stood. What is now being displayed, as an object demonstration of his character, is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. You have the opportunity to examine yourself and correct course, because you are currently flying low towards a cliff. This opportunity will end one day.

Edited August 27, 2023 by jaybird18c

[Phil1111 1,149]

23 hours ago, jaybird18c said:

Deuteronomy 32:35

"35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly."

31 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

God is not vengeful and jealous as we are vengeful and jealous. ...

Leviticus 19:11-13 “You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

[jaybird18c 24]

4 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

"35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly."

Leviticus 19:11-13 “You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Yes. If you’re going to quote, why not quote context as well? It’s right there with it. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by jaybird18c

[Phil1111 1,149]

I will concede that there are still real US Christians who put politics aside. Who devote their lives to helping others and living lives devoted to the poor and downtrodden.Real Christian lives unmolested by forcing others to submit to their religion.

Agencies in Texas archdiocese assist immigrants, refugees seeking asylum “All these past months, we were begging for help and all our houses were so packed and overflowing with people everywhere,” Zwick told the Texas Catholic Herald, newspaper of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. “Our young volunteers were working their selves into the ground.”

[JoeWeber 2,807]

37 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

I will concede that there are still real US Christians who put politics aside. Who devote their lives to helping others and living lives devoted to the poor and downtrodden.Real Christian lives unmolested by forcing others to submit to their religion.

Agencies in Texas archdiocese assist immigrants, refugees seeking asylum “All these past months, we were begging for help and all our houses were so packed and overflowing with people everywhere,” Zwick told the Texas Catholic Herald, newspaper of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. “Our young volunteers were working their selves into the ground.”

Yes, and that's important to remember. I think there are a whole lot of decent folks who use the community of Christianity to be even better decent folks. That's great and worthy of admiration. But I don't think that without Christianity many would be terrible people completely careless of the fates of their fellow humans. It's just a tool that makes them feel better and be more effective being who they already were.

[normiss 843]

18 hours ago, jaybird18c said:

Joe, do you have to teach a baby, toddler, teenager to be selfish? You have to teach them to not be selfish, correct? It is 100% guaranteed that every single one of us will translate that original sinful nature into our own, without exception, with a lifetime of sinful actions, each of which becomes our responsibility. Of course, a baby or young person who doesn't know right from wrong yet isn't responsible and, therefore, accountable. They are still sinful. However, they are accounted for by God's grace.

And dude, original sin has nothing to do with sex. God created us. God designed sex. God designed sex for reproduction. He also created it to be pleasurable and enjoyed between a man and a woman. I have no idea where you get this nonsense otherwise.

Bullshit, at least in my experience.

My girls were never selfish and didn't require any indoctrination. Oddly, you do have to teach children to believe the nonsense and hatred of religion, by indoctrination.

I'm so glad I didn't do that. I did expose them to religion enough for them to make their own decisions about it. None of them are "believers". The reality of life has taught them better.

[JoeWeber 2,807]

47 minutes ago, normiss said:

Of course, a baby or young person who doesn't know right from wrong yet isn't responsible and, therefore, accountable. They are still sinful. However, they are accounted for by God's grace.

How freaking far down the rabbit hole do you need to be for this to make sense?

[jakee 1,556]

4 hours ago, jaybird18c said:

God is not vengeful and jealous as we are vengeful and jealous. What he does is always righteous. 

kinda tough to reconcile that with your opening gambit in this conversation which was "god hates you", and has since been fleshed out to "god hates you because of the way you were born."

[gowlerk 2,241]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

How freaking far down the rabbit hole do you need to be for this to make sense?

God works in mysterious ways. Why should it need to make sense. The people I feel sorry for are the members of uncontacted tribes, who have no way of finding God.

[JoeWeber 2,807]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

God works in mysterious ways. Why should it need to make sense. The people I feel sorry for are the members of uncontacted tribes, who have no way of finding God.

No kidding. No wonder the Borg are angry all the time.

[kallend 2,099]

5 hours ago, jaybird18c said:

God is not vengeful and jealous as we are vengeful and jealous. What he does is always righteous. 

Very funny! Maybe you should bother to read the bible instead of misrepresenting it.  You'll probably go to hell for doing that.

Exodus 20:5-6 would be a good start.

[kallend 2,099]

4 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

I will concede that there are still real US Christians who put politics aside. Who devote their lives to helping others and living lives devoted to the poor and downtrodden.Real Christian lives unmolested by forcing others to submit to their religion.

Agencies in Texas archdiocese assist immigrants, refugees seeking asylum “All these past months, we were begging for help and all our houses were so packed and overflowing with people everywhere,” Zwick told the Texas Catholic Herald, newspaper of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. “Our young volunteers were working their selves into the ground.”

My wife (MD, atheist) is spending today voluteering her services at a medical clinic for migrants bussed out of Texas by those wonderful Christian governors down in the south.

[JerryBaumchen 1,422]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

God works in mysterious ways. Why should it need to make sense. The people I feel sorry for are the members of uncontacted tribes, who have no way of finding God.

Hi Ken,

During that long ago Bible Study, I asked the pastor if the people who lived in jungles & could never hear about the Christian god would go to Hell because they had never accepted Jesus as their savior.

He said that they would.

Further reinforcement of my decision.  In other words, horse-puckey at its finest.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

My wife (MD, atheist) is spending today voluteering her services at a medical clinic for migrants bussed out of Texas by those wonderful Christian governors down in the south.

Your wife is very kind. Tell her thanks from me.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

During that long ago Bible Study, I asked the pastor if the people who lived in jungles & could never hear about the Christian god would go to Hell because they had never accepted Jesus as their savior.

He said that they would.

Further reinforcement of my decision.  In other words, horse-puckey at its finest.

Jerry Baumchen

 

Just like the Islamic State there is the lunatic fringe of most if not all religions .I for one believe acceptance of others faults, modesty and humility should be apart of the makeup of every god. Hence I was surprised and taken aback when I was once called a "skygod".

[kallend 2,099]

6 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Your wife is very kind. Tell her thanks from me.

Maybe, but in this respect she's just a decent human being doing what is right, without the threat of eternal damnation forcing her to do it.

I have much more respect for people who do the right thing because it is right, than for those who do it only because they fear retribution from a mythical being.

[JoeWeber 2,807]

17 minutes ago, kallend said:

Maybe, but in this respect she's just a decent human being doing what is right, without the threat of eternal damnation forcing her to do it.

I have much more respect for people who do the right thing because it is right, than for those who do it only because they fear retribution from a mythical being.

John,  most aren't doing it under threat. They are mostly decent folks who don't know jack about the belief system they belong to or the book they are supposed to worship. My guess is that, at best, most think that Deuteronomy is what gets into the well water after a nuclear bomb blast.

[ryoder 1,590]

26 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

John,  most aren't doing it under threat. They are mostly decent folks who don't know jack about the belief system they belong to or the book they are supposed to worship. My guess is that, at best, most think that Deuteronomy is what gets into the well water after a nuclear bomb blast.

And Philippians are those tubes a woman has tied when she doesn't want to get pregnant again.

[jaybird18c 24]

10 hours ago, kallend said:

Maybe, but in this respect she's just a decent human being doing what is right, without the threat of eternal damnation forcing her to do it.

I have much more respect for people who do the right thing because it is right, than for those who do it only because they fear retribution from a mythical being.

Hell is not God's form of retribution. It's his justice. In the same way a judge cannot let the convicted murderer go free in the courtroom without being a corrupt judge. There is no malice with God. That would be contrary to his nature.

Also, the believer does not do good in order to gain favor with God. The believer does good because God has changed their nature and they're now willing to reflect his goodness. That's why it's acceptable to him. Out "goodness," if you will, is tainted with other motives. This doesn't mean that the unbeliever can't do what we would consider good things. It doesn't mean that the unbeliever can't be a very moral person, from our perspective. It doesn't mean that the believer and unbeliever alike can't do very bad things. They can! We're human. I have a brother-in-law who has been a lifetime atheist. He is one of the kindest, most charitable people I know.

But good for your wife. She is being a decent human being and doing good things. It's commendable!

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by jaybird18c

[jaybird18c 24]

18 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

During that long ago Bible Study, I asked the pastor if the people who lived in jungles & could never hear about the Christian god would go to Hell because they had never accepted Jesus as their savior.

He said that they would.

Further reinforcement of my decision.  In other words, horse-puckey at its finest.

Jerry Baumchen

 

People don't go to hell because they're never heard of Jesus. They go to hell because they've lied, stolen, committed adultery, coveted, murdered, disrespected parents, and countless other transgressions.  However, if they are to be justified, in other words "saved," it will be through the gospel of Jesus Christ, however they knowledge of that transpires.

Edited August 28, 2023 by jaybird18c

[jakee 1,556]

7 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

Hell is not God's form of retribution. It's his justice. In the same way a judge cannot let the convicted murderer go free in the courtroom without being a corrupt judge. There is no malice with God. That would be contrary to his nature.

If a judge sentenced a one time shoplifter to life in prison because he or she hated all criminals that would be the epitome of malice and corruption, and would have nothing whatsoever to do with justice.

8 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

This doesn't mean that the unbeliever can't do what we would consider good things. It doesn't mean that the unbeliever can't be a very moral person, from our perspective. It doesn't mean that the believer and unbeliever alike can't do very bad things. They can! We're human. I have a brother-in-law who has been a lifetime atheist. He is one of the kindest, most charitable people I know.

Hence, again, why the god you describe is utterly amoral and doesn’t give a shit about whether people do good things.

10 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

But good for your wife. She is being a decent human being and doing good things. It's commendable!

So why do you keep insisting that your god doesn’t commend it?

[Phil1111 1,149]

10 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

Hell is not God's form of retribution. It's his justice. In the same way a judge cannot let the convicted murderer go free in the courtroom without being a corrupt judge. ...

So its hell or heaven with no in between.

11 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

.... The believer does good because God has changed their nature and they're now willing to reflect his goodness. ...

Yet the rate of volunteering, charitable donations outside the church are not statistically higher than the general population.

13 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

.... I have a brother-in-law who has been a lifetime atheist. He is one of the kindest, most charitable people I know....

Yet burning in hell is his destiny.