How does a student know...

[Orange1 0]

Fatality listed under incidents (no thread) in Chile, student with 3 jumps:

"Student failed to open the main spring loaded pilot chute due to it being traped The ripcord was made out of yellow cutaway cable and not stiff black cable. Student was unable to clear this hard pull.
The FXC 12000 AAD did not work properly ,as it was out of its maintenance date by five years."

Another thread a girl was asking about Mexico and was warned to keep a lookout for some DZs having poor gear for economy reasons.

My question is, how does a student really know what to look for especially if they have nothing else to compare it to? I mean, you pitch up at a DZ and they tell you it's all been done right, you're gonna accept that... And you can have old gear that is well maintained and safe to jump.

This is probably not going to evoke many answers. I was just horrified at the Chile report and needed to get it off my chest.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Have you forget something?

You suppose to open something to save your life.

E.g. after tried and failed to open your main for 3 times going for reserve without hesitation....

[Orange1 0]

I did think of that. However the scarce details gave no indication as to whether the reserve ripcord had been pulled or not. I also had to wonder, if the gear was in that condition, about the training....?

Anyway - that wasn't the question, the question was how a student can determine whether or not the DZ they have chosen follows all the required safety procedures...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Can you do it in case of a driving school?

You can not avoid everything in real life.

[krouton01 0]

A non-sarcastic answer would be go to reputable DZ's. Dz.com is a great source for finding this out. Then once you know what gears supposed to look like then you can venture off. I've jumped at very few DZ's but it seems pretty common sense to me.

[piisfish 140]

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A non-sarcastic answer would be go to reputable DZ's. Dz.com is a great source for finding this out. Then once you know what gears supposed to look like then you can venture off. I've jumped at very few DZ's but it seems pretty common sense to me.

5 dz's listed here for Chile, 3 being around Santiago... Check a map and see how big Chile is

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[kelpdiver 2]

short answer - they can't. Those here who would blame students for not knowing to go somewhere better are ducking their own responsibilities in the matter.

[popsjumper 2]

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...ducking their own responsibilities in the matter.

Clarification, please? WTF you on about?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Orange1 0]

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...ducking their own responsibilities in the matter.

Clarification, please? WTF you on about?

I can't answer for Kelpdiver but what I think he means is what prompted me to post in the first place - we know any fatality is bad for the sport and surely there should be a natural leaning to wanting to help protect students - after all that's why we don't put them out on solo freefalls on their first jump.

Re the answer above about gear, sure if you've been around a few but if you're a first time jumper... I don't know if there IS an answer. How do they know what's "normal"? And not every FTJ has managed to find dz.com before they go jump.

Thanks to those who have tried to provide constructive input.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[popsjumper 2]

Kelpdiver does have a point in that it's not easy for them to "know" about gear quality...unless the instructors tell them and I don't see that happening....instructors would deal with those issues with the DZO, if anyone, right?.

All we can do is maintain the gear as well as possible and fight the big battles with the DZOs that want or need to stretch the gear budget.

Thanks again, Chantal...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kelpdiver 2]

oh, it stems out of the various 'responsibility' threads where people pump their chest and insist that those who get killed at DZs engaging in unsafe practices have only themselves to blame. Somehow these students are supposed to know which places are really dangerous, and which ones just ignore the less important safety rules but are really cool anyhow.

At the same time, those who take 'unnecessary risks' don't have a right to...because their deaths would hurt the sport.

I think there's a big overlap on these two camps, even though its the unsafe DZs that are a greater threat to the sport.

[jduebi 0]

I'll start my AFF in 24 days and of course I also thought about this point.

As a stundent in the end, I'v no big choice than to believe the instructor, so I don't realy know how good the gear works...

But I'm not that affraid about that problem, because I'll ask anything, and the instructor will have to explain me everything. And I wanna see the AAD, and all things I already know from reading all the safety articles here :-)

I think a Student should remind the following sentence:
"It's not about trust, it's about my live."

That's why I wanna make an AFF with a small group of students and enough instructors which speak my language...

Hopefully everyone who wanna start skydiving will read about it enough, before he starts AFF.

[Orange1 0]

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Hopefully everyone who wanna start skydiving will read about it enough, before he starts AFF.

I didn't. Didn't read a thing other than the stuff on the website of the DZ I trained at... A friend of mine said "you wanna skydive?" I said "sure" and about a week later we were at a FJC (SL jumps). (Then again it was only meant to be a one-time jump...)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[jduebi 0]

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I didn't. Didn't read a thing other than the stuff on the website of the DZ I trained at... A friend of mine said "you wanna skydive?" I said "sure" and about a week later we were at a FJC (SL jumps). (Then again it was only meant to be a one-time jump...)

Ok:
1. Skydiving is something I wanna do since I'm 12
2. I had to wait a year after my first Tandem to start AFF

At the moment I'm thinking about nothing else than getting up there, getting into it... And of course, what I realy wann do as soon as I'm good enough, is wingsuit flying.

Back to the topic... Of course, most students won't, and even I didn't read as much about skydiving to decide if an instructor is a good one, or if the gear is still ok.
(Even the poorest DZ won't give you a gear, of which they know, that it won't work at all...)

That's why organisations like USPA and of course pages like this are realy important.

That's why it is realy important to writhe reviews of gear and dropzones, because no manufacturer and no dz will tell you that their bad :-)

[AFFI 0]

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how does a student really know what to look for especially if they have nothing else to compare it to?

They don't, it is blind faith but statically the largest majority of skydivers will survive long enough until they have a better understanding.

Problem I see is instructors who are not safety oriented teaching student’s bad habits and then the bad habits are taken away from student status and spread like a virus. Have seen it and have realized there is little I can do except keep my part of the street clean and help make safer, better informed skydivers to those who will listen.

The sad truth is there are organizations and individuals out three that will cut safety corners just to make a buck...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Zipp0 1]

If they give you a golf umbrella for a reserve, be suspicious.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[popsjumper 2]

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...They don't, it is blind faith...

Bingo...it's sad that tandem jumps have become known as "rides". The average wuffo off the street sees it as little more than an amusement park ride as far as equipment knowledge and safety are concerned.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kelpdiver 2]

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...They don't, it is blind faith...

Bingo...it's sad that tandem jumps have become known as "rides". The average wuffo off the street sees it as little more than an amusement park ride as far as equipment knowledge and safety are concerned.

so who's to blame- the wuffo for thinking that, or us for calling it a ride (or carrying meat)? DZs have found they can market it better as a ride, and so most do.

[popsjumper 2]

I did a quick poll on several DZ webpages and only 1 I looked at called it a ride...all others called it a Tandem Skydive.

I think some of us put the idea in their minds when they get there...

- So your here to take a tandem ride?
- Just enjoy the ride.
- How was your ride.
- etc.....etc....

.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[PhreeZone 20]

Perfect example of a DZ just looking at it as a cash making operation: http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/living/14081984.htm

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[crotalus01 0]

wow....i really hope that article was just an exaggeration on the part of the reporter. NO instruction on the ground? no explanation on why to arch or how? no explanation for anything. unbelievable...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[billvon 3,059]

>NO instruction on the ground? no explanation on why to arch or how? no explanation for anything.

Not unusual for tandem mills. The more common deal is the tandem lesson on the way to the airplane. "OK, you're going to cross your arms and arch. Show me an arch. No, like this. OK, we're good to go."

[Squeak 17]

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>NO instruction on the ground? no explanation on why to arch or how? no explanation for anything.

Not unusual for tandem mills. The more common deal is the tandem lesson on the way to the airplane. "OK, you're going to cross your arms and arch. Show me an arch. No, like this. OK, we're good to go."

Geez not at any DZ I've been to
Our TM's do about 15min breifing and all Tamden passengers go into a harness to demonstrate the ability to get their leg out of the way on landing.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[bob.dino 1]

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Our TM's do about 15min breifing and all Tamden passengers go into a harness to demonstrate the ability to get their leg out of the way on landing.

Ditto, though I'm not sure how long the briefing really lasts. They do all end up in the hanging harness though.

[Liemberg 0]

If I had to send my loved ones somewhere and I knew that they were doing 'flocks of tandems' which was noticable through the lack of 'instruction' and the casual attitude they had, I would be a lot LESS worried about their safety than if I saw 45 minutes in the classroom to begin with, followed by tandemmasters and students fully geared up doing extensive briefings on al procedures...

I would be thinking: "Dzjeez - if they take time for one and a half hour briefings for something as simple as a tandemjump, they are not doing a lot of them and they are not jumping with passengers on a regular basis... They'd better be careful not to freak that innocent tandempassenger too much - the more stressed he or she is, the more funkier the ride usually becomes..."

There IS something to be said for "the minimalistic approach" for that first tandem. If you talk to people for more than an hour and far most of the content isn't essential to do safely what you are about to do, then what's the point?

You'll be the only one saving their ass anyway, whatever they decide to do once you leave the door.
Might as well try to relax them as good as you can.
Getting them overwhelmed with information they don't need and only partly understand isn't going to help there...
If they only have to think about one thing that you told them five minutes ago they might do much better than if prior to the jump you took time to discuss in dept the USPA SIM's and Brian Germains "The Parachute and its Pilot" ...

I want them to hold their harness and put their feet on my bum on exit. Then on landing, I want them to pick up their feet (grab their kneegrips) and not reach for the ground.

See - now you are all briefed - let's skydive!

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...