Need a pilot with jump plane in WY this weekend

[DiverMike 5]

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lso, it was not considered a "bandit jump" or a "demo jump" because it was for a private function on private property. And I got that okayed by the USPA Regional director over a year ago.

That is where you are wrong. It was done in public airspace. You could reference AC 105-2D and argue that it was in class 'E' or 'G' and ATC only had to be notified. Did you notify ATC no earlier than 24 hours before nor later than 1 hour prior to the jump? Regardless, the National Transpoyation and Safety Board (NTSB) typically rules that if anyone was watching it, it was considered to be an open-air assembly of people and requires the form Form 7711-2 to be filled out and approved, so simple notification is not enough.

From a recent ruling:

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. . . the board necessarily had to determine whether a beach is a congested area. Instead of providing a reasoned explanation, the board perfunctorily held that any number of persons on the beach made it a congested area as an “open air assembly of persons.” It did so without providing any guidance as to how many persons and how closely assembled the persons need to be to constitute a congested area.

Jumping into a wedding if there were spectators present would definitely be considered a demo jump by the NTSB.

Your Regional Director gave you bad advice.
But hey, you got away with it.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[pchapman 279]

One issue is the people watching. Where does one find info suggesting that if anyone is watching, it is an open air assembly of persons? (DiverMike suggested some NTSB judgement -- but they have no bearing on FAA's rules? Or did the FAA make some ruling?) Does it matter that it it a closed and not public event? I know some countries distinguish between an open public even like an air display, versus a more private event, but I'm not sure what the limits are.

Even if the crowd is an open-air assembly, isn't authorization only required if one flies OVER or INTO the open-air assembly (or congested area), like it says in part 105.21? Following the logic of the text, you can have a giant crowd but if you don't fly over them and swoop into a field right next to them, you aren't landing "into" the crowd. I know that's a trick in my country's rules. Or does any source list horizontal separation from the assembly of persons or congested area?

Demo jump rules can be tough to understand.

[SethInMI 174]

pchapman

(DiverMike suggested some NTSB judgement -- but they have no bearing on FAA's rules? Or did the FAA make some ruling?)

Demo jump rules can be tough to understand.

Well I just learned something (that I guess all USA pilots probably know):

from Wikipedia: A little-known responsibility of the NTSB is that it serves as a court of appeals for airmen, aircraft mechanics, certificated aviation-related companies and mariners who have their licenses suspended or revoked by the federal government. The Board's determinations may be appealed to the federal court system by the losing party, whether it is the individual or company, on the one hand, or the FAA or the Coast Guard, on the other.

Reading up on what DiverMike was saying, the FAA generally views a congested area very broadly. From what little I read, I would guess if there is more than one person spectating, the FAA would view it as an open air assembly.

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[theonlyski 8]

I wouldn't trust the NTSB to save my bacon on any of my certificates. If the FAA wants them, they've got enough lawyers to run me broke very quickly and take them anyways.

Would they consider it a demo jump? Probably.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4630303#4630303

IIRC the pilot got his license suspended for 6 months, while it didn't bother his flying much due to it being a seasonal flying habit, if that happened to a full time DZ pilot, the DZ and the pilot would be in a sticky situation and that pilot could very well go hungry.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JohnMitchell 16]

SethInMI

From what little I read, I would guess if there is more than one person spectating, the FAA would view it as an open air assembly.

Good. Then don't jump OVER them. You're jumping over and landing in an open field. The FAA doesn't mind if jumpers get killed out in the middle of open fields. They just don't want them bouncing on a taxpayer.

[JohnMitchell 16]

DiverMike

because it was for a private function on private property. And I got that okayed by the USPA Regional director over a year ago.

I've done those into my back yard several times with nothing more than filing a notam. As I understand it, that's not even required now.

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That is where you are wrong. It was done in public airspace. You could reference AC 105-2D and argue that it was in class 'E' or 'G' and ATC only had to be notified.

What do you mean by "public" airspace. I mean, Uncle Sam owns all of it, A,B,C,D,E and F, right?


*** Regardless, the National Transpoyation and Safety Board (NTSB) typically rules that if anyone was watching it, it was considered to be an open-air assembly of people and requires the form Form 7711-2 to be filled out and approved, so simple notification is not enough.
Jumping into a wedding if there were spectators present would definitely be considered a demo jump by the NTSB.

[DiverMike 5]

Yes - the guvmint owns all the air.

You would think that jumping over a crowd of people, but landing in an empty field would be ok based on 105.21.a, but I'm guessing this reg is written so people can leave at the right spot (over town) and land at the airport dropzone.

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(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or into a congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or an open-air assembly of persons unless a certificate of authorization for that parachute operation has been issued under this section. However, a parachutist may drift over a congested area or an open-air assembly of persons with a fully deployed and properly functioning parachute if that parachutist is at a sufficient altitude to avoid creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface.

But the Advisory Circular conveniently leaves out any mention of being allowed to drift over during a demo jump.

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Section 105.21(b) requires an FAA COA to conduct a parachute operation over or into a congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or an open-air assembly of persons. This COA must be obtained from the FAA FSDO that has jurisdiction over the site where the jump is proposed by submitting an application, FAA Form 7711-2, Certificate of Waiver or Authorization Application.

If nothing goes wrong with the jump, and the FAA didn't see it, the FAA Form 7711-2 is probably not needed if you jump over but land in the open.

If the shit hits the fan, I'm pretty sure the NTSB will screw the pilot and in some cases the skydiver.

I am a little curious how the conversation with the USPA regional director went.

skydiver: I have a 'B' license, 170 jumps, and plan to jump into my wedding off the DZ with spectators.
Regional Director: Sure go ahead

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[theonlyski 8]

DiverMike

I am a little curious how the conversation with the USPA regional director went.

skydiver: I have a 'B' license, 170 jumps, and plan to jump into my wedding off the DZ with spectators.
Regional Director: Sure go ahead

He said the RD gave him the green light a year ago, so it could be a much different number than the 170 jumps... of course the post where he posted that has been deleted by him...

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JohnMitchell 16]

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"DiverMike"]Yes - the guvmint owns all the air.

And in much of it, Class E and G airspace, you have much latitude to conduct all kinds of VFR activities, from aerobatics, hot air ballooning, general aviating and skydiving without any permission from ATC. Of course, skydiving requires the pilot receive traffic advisories prior to jump, but not permission.

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You would think that jumping over a crowd of people, but landing in an empty field would be ok based on 105.21.a

Nope, the FAA doesn't want us to exit over people, just in case the parachute doesn't work.They have little faith in our mad skilz.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or into a congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or an open-air assembly of persons unless a certificate of authorization for that parachute operation has been issued under this section.

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skydiver: I have a 'B' license, 170 jumps, and plan to jump into my wedding off the DZ with spectators.
Regional Director: Sure go ahead

My first demo was piloting a 2 stack into the open lawn of a community college. I had 115 jumps and a fresh C license. It went really well.

I'd want to see the golf course and where the crowd was, maybe check the wingloading and see how the guy flew his canopy before getting to worked up (or approving it, probably). I think we keep forgetting that 170 jumps is not a noob and that golf courses tend to be really, really big. IMHO.

[jimmytavino 16]

a quick note about demos, on Golf Courses or even OUT Landings,, on golf courses...

The terrain is OFTEN,,, NOT a flat as you might think... Lots of hills and some of them Steep... especially around Some Greens...

You should always scope out the Exact area where you plan to land...( IF it's a demo ) and if an off landing, maybe target for the center of a fairway.

Your depth perception doesn't always kick in,,, like youy might expect.. and landing Into an Upgrade, and even a severe Downgrade... could cause an embarasssing landing at best, and any sort of injury, at worst.
Golf Courses...be careful.

jmy

[JohnMitchell 16]

Yep, very good advice. I've done some "no see first" demos, but only when they've been checked out by jumpers I trust. I prefer to walk the landing area first.

[Guru312 0]

JohnMitchell

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or into a congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or an open-air assembly of persons unless a certificate of authorization for that parachute operation has been issued under this section.

I have no idea when this paragraph was inserted into FAR 105 but...

Sometime in the mid-70s, prolly '75 or '76, I piloted my Cessna 182 for a guy with a D license, I and J/M ratings and at least 500 jumps for a jump he made into Veteran's Stadium in Philadelphia, PA. He jumped into the stadium carrying the ball to open the Phillies baseball season that year.

The stadium was demolished about ten years ago but it was in a VERY built up section of Philadelphia with warehouses, office buildings and houses...and very few alternative landing areas. More interesting is the fact that it was in the control zone of the airport....probably less than a mile from the airport control tower. In other words, he jumped into controlled airspace.

A month or so before the actual jump we did a "practice" jump for the Phillies marketing and public relations people with no one in the stands. The jumper, Pat Mulhern, of Newark, Delaware did a stand-up landing with one foot on second base.

On the day of the practice jump there was almost no wind. The actual jump day had rather strong and VERY unusual winds. The flags around the rim of the stadium gave him totally conflicting visual clues on the field. With 40,000 screaming people in the stands he missed the stadium completely and landed in a parking lot with no injury and no damage to vehicles.

Because there was a high-ranking FAA official in the stands, who took exception to the jump and filed a complaint. A full investigation took place. I spent lots of time and money defending my actions as the pilot in command in order to keep my commercial rating.

Fortunately for me, Pat had done his homework well and had copied all local FAA general aviation offices in the area. He had touched all the required bases...so to speak. He did everything by the numbers and the FARs.

But...what saved his ass and my commercial license was the comments by the tower personnel and particularly the “supervisor” of tower operations to the FAA investigator who reviewed the jump. The tower personnel defended us both and the supervisor wrote a report with all the details of first contact and transcript between me and the tower. Pat actually jumped within the controlled air space of the airport.

Because of this thread, which I find quite interesting for a number of reasons, I'm going to see if I can find my file where I've stored all the details of the jump.

It'll be fun reliving that jump.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[JohnMitchell 16]

I hate those god damned FSDO guys and their over-inflated sense of worth. They drive me up a wall.

[hcsvader 1]

Hell, in Australia you can do a display with 50 jumps provided the landing area is 100m from spectators.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[JohnMitchell 16]

hcsvader

Hell, in Australia you can do a display with 50 jumps provided the landing area is 100m from spectators.

Sounds smart to me.

[jimmytavino 16]

hcsvader

Hell, in Australia you can do a display with 50 jumps provided the landing area is 100m from spectators.

Well, HELL, THEN....
IF you have 100 jumps,,,
does THAT mean you can jump within 50 Meters of spectators ??

[hcsvader 1]

jimmytavino

***Hell, in Australia you can do a display with 50 jumps provided the landing area is 100m from spectators.

Well, HELL, THEN....
IF you have 100 jumps,,,
does THAT mean you can jump within 50 Meters of spectators ??
Nah you need 500 jumps to be THAT close

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[normiss 798]

Dealing with that issue here.
The river front is about 2 miles from the international airport. City is planning a small airshow.
All going pretty good until we get to the skydivers part.
FSDO says "Oh NOW you want skydivers too??? That's not gonna happen."
What. The. Dick.
Air show is cleared, but no jumpers....what a dumb ass.

Challenge accepted. Especially since there is a C-47 in the airshow we were offered as a jump ship.

[JohnMitchell 16]

I knew a FSDO manager out here who would state "Skydiving is not a legitimate aviation activity." And he worked very hard sometimes to make our lives miserable.

[JamMasterJay 0]

first, i'm glad they pulled off the jump.

second, please don't confuse FAR/AIM with USPA SIM. one is issued from an administration and the other from association.

third, NTSB investigates mishaps. they do not set/enforce air regulation. see second bullet.

last, glad you know more than his/her USPA regional director. nothing like some armchair qb-ing from a dorm-lawer

Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy.

[DiverMike 5]

First - I too am glad they pulled off the jump.

Second - I clearly know the difference

Third - You are correct, the NTSB only handles appeals when the FAA takes action, so if nothing bad happens or nobody sees it, the NTSB will not get involved.

Last, I don't know what the conversation was like so you got me on that one. Technically, the RD is not violating USPA BSRs if he approves an A or B licensed jumper to do a demo into an open field with spectators. It is in section 7-1 of the SIM which makes it a recommendation and not a requirement and the RD can ignore or override it. He must have determined this jumper had mad skillz and the experience and ability requirements did not pertain to him.

So, yes, I am second guessing that decision without knowing all the facts. Isn't that what the internet is for?

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.