Safe? - Photo inside

[mattjw916 2]

That's belly-flying though... a freefly preemie is undodgeable... period, end of story. As soon as you see the PC (main or reserve it doesn't matter), the person is gone, no ifs-ands-or-butts. The burble in FF is virtually non-existant. As soon as the PC is out, it's in clear 150+mph air... bad news.

I really think Trent's comments hit the nail on the head in this thread.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[billvon 2,991]

>a freefly preemie is undodgeable... period, end of story.

That may well be true, at freefly speeds. A good reason not to take students to freefly speeds.

[stratostar 5]

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a freefly preemie is undodgeable... period, end of story.

And would this not prove our point of why it is NOT a good idea to do 3d's with a tandem?

Ok I know some people just don't get it or maybe just don't care to get it.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Trent 0]

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Pretend or not, Rick Horn has videos of AFF-I's doing just that, in his "stupid student tricks" video. He uses it as a warning to not get over the top of the student. In one I recall, the PC comes very close to the JM, but he backs up in time to avoid the d-bag.

When hovering over a student... you can see the PC and d-bag coming... when it's from someone hanging beneath you, you probably won't see it going between your legs. Make no mistakes, you WON'T avoid it on any hybrid.

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 2,991]

> Make no mistakes, you WON'T avoid it on any hybrid.

An excellent reason to avoid doing them with students.

[davelepka 4]

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Make no mistakes, you WON'T avoid it on any hybrid.

Wouldn't you agree that a solo jumper has a better chance of a PC bouncing off of them, and just going around them then a tandem? Even if the hanger was pulled up into the base guy, it seems likely that he would bounce off, and fall away from the hanger.

A tandem has more snag hazzards between the two people, and if it gets around them it still has the drouge to deal with. Additionally, thanks to the drouge, the tandem pair is more 'fixed' in place, and might not be rolled to one side or the other as easily as a solo jumper.

Really, think about it. You know how easily you push around a solo belly flyer. Especially if you tip them one way or the other. Now think about tandems in drouge fall. They're a pretty solid chunk of meat hanging there.

It's like the diffeence between getting into a car crash with a compact, or with an SUV. If I had to run into either one, I'd take the smaller, lighter object. every time.

[Trent 0]

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And would this not prove our point of why it is NOT a good idea to do 3d's with a tandem?

Not only that, it would prove that it is dangerous to do ANY hybrid.... or even any freeflying where people move over and under each other.

Proof positive that freeflyers either have more balls, or are just more idiotic.

Oh, hello again!

[Liemberg 0]

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In one I recall, the PC comes very close to the JM, but he backs up in time to avoid the d-bag.

Now lets picture him doing that again with a passenger up front and a drogue trailing behind....

I would imagine that a lot of us, when confronted with an opening container 'to close for comfort' would roll, flip, turn - whatever it takes to not get hit in the head and certainly not grabbing anything.
With some skill and some luck, we might save the day - though it isn't clear what the fractions would be between skill and luck.
With the restrictions you have when doing tandem you are into the 100% luck realm, when you get away with the same scenario.

When I want my kicks purely from 'rolling the dice' I go to the casino.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Trent 0]

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Wouldn't you agree that a solo jumper has a better chance of a PC bouncing off of them, and just going around them then a tandem?

Sure, 2 less legs, 1 less drogue. If that happened, there may be the chance that an entanglement could be cut away by either the TM or the jumper.

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Even if the hanger was pulled up into the base guy, it seems likely that he would bounce off, and fall away from the hanger.

This scenario scares me more and is possible in a typical hybrid. This would probably result in someone being unconcious or missing limbs and not much chance of saving themselves on the way down.

We could take this whole thing even further.... right? Hybrids are dangerous, we shouldn't do them. But then skydiving is dangerous, so we shouldn't be doing it either. Most of us accept the risks and do it anyway, against decent advice from others. In my opinion, the "student" here understood the risks of this jump... even if people here, even though they are ignorant of the actual scenario, will insist that she was incapable of understanding these risks.

Oh, hello again!

[yamtx73 0]

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We could take this whole thing even further.... right? Hybrids are dangerous, we shouldn't do them. But then skydiving is dangerous, so we shouldn't be doing it either. Most of us accept the risks and do it anyway, against decent advice from others. In my opinion, the "student" here understood the risks of this jump... even if people here, even though they are ignorant of the actual scenario, will insist that she was incapable of understanding these risks.

Note the portion I emphasized. Hybrid jumps are inherently more dangerous than a belly down jump, that's the reason why they are only done by (repeat after me everyone) experienced skydivers. No matter how experienced the TI and the free fliers are, no matter how much you explain the dangers of a hybrid jump to a wuffo they won't comprehend it. The odds of an experienced free flier avoiding serious injury should the hanger have a premature deployment are slim, the odds of a tandem is even lower because they have no manuverability. Add in the drogue chute and possible entanglement with it and the chances of survival become negligable.

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[Trent 0]

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No matter how experienced the TI and the free fliers are, no matter how much you explain the dangers of a hybrid jump to a wuffo they won't comprehend it.

Like money in the bank...

We should ban hybrids. That's all.

Oh, hello again!

[Praetorian 1]

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no matter how much you explain the dangers of a hybrid jump to a wuffo they won't comprehend it.

I'm Calling B.S. how ego centric are we all as skydivers, I'm a cold calculating SOB, there are many many things I have not done that I understand the risks involved in, because I can READ, have Talked with people who DO and examined the gear as well as the biology involved. I've never deep sea Wreck Dived ... But I've got a pretty good Idea of the dangers. maybe not first hand maybe not perfect, but I doubt you'll find that all skydivers even understand all the risks on a "simple solo"

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[billvon 2,991]

>I've never deep sea Wreck Dived ... But I've got a pretty good Idea of the dangers . . .

Good example. Would you take someone who had only been in the water before once before in a pool, and who couldn't swim, on a deep wreck dive? How about a SCUBA diver who had a few dives under their belt? One of those people can understand the risks, one can't.

[Praetorian 1]

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>I've never deep sea Wreck Dived ... But I've got a pretty good Idea of the dangers . . .

Good example. Would you take someone who had only been in the water before once before in a pool, and who couldn't swim, on a deep wreck dive? How about a SCUBA diver who had a few dives under their belt? One of those people can understand the risks, one can't.

Fair question but wrong analogy, I would rather do the hybrid tandem (even with my pathetic skills) blindfolded than attempt a deep sea wreck dive, but scuba outfits take people who have never scuba dived before (all should agree an activity simmilarly dangerous to skydiving) diving with a coach, diving into as deep as 90ft of water, with sharks... if a tandem is to scuba then this hybrid is to scuba with sharks, more things that can go bad, more chances for a bad reaction to those bad things to make things worse but all in all an UNDERSTANDABLE increase in risk.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[billvon 2,991]

> but scuba outfits take people who have never scuba dived before
> (all should agree an activity simmilarly dangerous to skydiving)
> diving with a coach, diving into as deep as 90ft of water, with
> sharks...

Another good example. Non-divers think sharks are scary and dangerous - but rapid ascents have injured and killed FAR more divers than sharks. Even though rapid ascents often seem like a very good idea to new divers. This is an example where they cannot accurately judge the risks, so they rely on their divemaster to judge the risks _for_ them.

Now, to a new skydiver, someone hanging on the front seems like a small risk (heck, it's on the cover of that magazine!) but jumping without a tersh might seem like a large risk. Again, it is up to the instructor to make that decision for them. And if they have the right to say "no, we don't need a tersh; I've been jumping for ten years and they just don't help" then they have the responsibility to say no to other things.

[billbooth 10]

Everyone's asking my opinion on this, so here goes. I am assuming the tandem passenger in this photo is a whuffo. If everybody involved was a very experience jumper, I might modify my opinion a bit.

No, I don't think it is "safe" to do hybrids with tandem. Two main reasons...1. To get into that position, the hybrid jumper has to "crawl around" on the students harness. Depending on where the main release handle is placed, this greatly increases the chance of accidental drogue release...and as we all know, drogue release during tandem relative work can, and has been fatal. 2. You should never get either directly over or under a tandem. A tandem master under drogue cannot get out of the way if you accidentally deploy underneath, and the tandem student might pull the drogue release at any moment at ANY altitude. And always remember, a tandem jump is for the student's education, not for your amusement.

[chinmao 0]

I would say a whuffo tandem student has the same chance of fully understanding the dangers of a hibrid tandem as they do of fully understanding the dangers of a tandem.
The whuffo is putting their trust in the experienced proffesional to make the decisions that best suit their interest.
I don't think we fully understand the dangers involved until we have knowledge of our equipment and our limitations which takes 100's of jumps. When I had around 50 jumps I still thought i was likely to kill myself at any time. I now know this wasn't the case.
I'm sure that most first time tandem students are of the opinion that what they are doing is incredibly dangerous. They have no point of refference, thats one of the jobs of the TI.

Sorry for the bad english. It's not my mother tongue