Safe? - Photo inside

[Praetorian 1]

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You can speculate what if's forever. I think I'll just ask the two people I know that are in the picture how they prepared for the jump, including the experience of the passenger.

I was waiting for somone with MUCH higer jump numbers than me to say it, I know the TM, Hanger, and I think the sit flyers (bad monotor at work or I'd be sure), I know which beach in mexico they probably did this over and which plane they jumped from :) because I know these people I feel that though the jump looks a bit much, and may indeed be far more dangerous than a normal tandem, or a normal hybrid, or a tandem RW formation I really doubt this was something put together on the plane. This was something they planed ahead. I cannot be sure about the passenger, but everyone else in this jump knows the risks, and has the experience to properly evaluate them. Remember for the student/passenger to die odds are the TM has to go too, and I know he would avoid that.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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I cannot be sure about the passenger

Thats the important part. I dont care about the others, if it is a student tandem passenger the jump is about them, and thier safety. I only have 60 jumps and I feel I am able to determine that the students safety should be the FIRST concern. I dont care how experienced the others are. They could be the people I consider my mentors in this sport, the tandem is about the passenger, and their safety and their enjoyment, in that order.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[billvon 3,073]

>Most of the whuffos I know would probably have been totally
>okay with the jump even after an explanation of the dangers.

So?

I could tell a first jump student "hey, we're going to give you a 95 square foot canopy. It's a dangerous canopy, but you read the waiver; you can be injured or killed doing this stuff. They are hard to land safely because they're so fast but we will have you on radio. If you really want something slower, I will give you one of the big student canopies."

From my experience, 25% of the FJC students I've taught would go for the 95 square foot canopy. That does NOT make it OK, even if they are OK with it. Whuffos do not have the experience to be able to make an informed decision. That's why we don't let them jump 95 square foot canopies on their first few jumps. Even after an explanation of the dangers.

[brianfry713 0]

There's a similar pic here by the same photographer in Mexico. It also looks like the same hangar, but he's wearing a jumpsuit. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=32041&d=1

It's also discussed somewhat at the end of this thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2084471;page=4

BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI
USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative

[mattjw916 2]

Apples and oranges once again... putting a FJC student on a HP canopy is not the analogue of the hybrid in the photo.

You are foisting your western liberal nanny-state morals on others again. The passenger is an adult; she made the choice to participate and obviously had fun. That's enough for me.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[davelepka 4]

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You are foisting your western liberal nanny-state morals on others again. The passenger is an adult; she made the choice to participate and obviously had fun. That's enough for me.

I think another thing is that the more shit you see go wrong, the more gun shy you are to added risk.

Especially the more unusual shit you see go wrong really makes you think about whats really possible.

[Buried 0]

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There's a similar pic here by the same photographer in Mexico. It also looks like the same hangar, but he's wearing a jumpsuit. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=32041&d=1

interesting.. and with another tandem. I'm curious how they present this idea to the student. Seems fairly clear that these aren't exp people doing tandems, they are students.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[speedy 0]

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Apples and oranges once again... putting a FJC student on a HP canopy is not the analogue of the hybrid in the photo.

You are foisting your western liberal nanny-state morals on others again. The passenger is an adult; she made the choice to participate and obviously had fun. That's enough for me.

Yes, but if the FJC student had fun landing her HP canopy you could still say, "The passenger student is an adult; she made the choice to participate and obviously had fun." Stop foisting nanny state morals on her.

I think with your last paragraph you have cancelled your first paragraph.

I must go with Billvon here, when the passenger is not in a situation to judge the dangers, we as experienced people should err on the side of caution. In this photo I suspect that was not done.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[78RATS 0]

If these are the guys I think they are, there is no way they would a) do something they thought beyond their abilities - which are great, or b) take a tandem passenger without the necessary explanation, safety briefing, etc.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[billvon 3,073]

>You are foisting your western liberal nanny-state morals on others again.

This is Safety and Training, not Speaker's Corner. Please keep that in mind.

Instructors are controlling people by training. We don't let students do hybrids or jump 95's because we think we know better than them what will kill them and what will allow them to learn to skydive safely. I suspect you will understand that aspect of an instructor's job someday.

>The passenger is an adult . . .

So was the student in my example.

[johnny1488 1]

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The passenger is an adult; she made the choice to participate and obviously had fun. That's enough for me.

Thats why I hope you never become a TI.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[popsjumper 2]

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Wow, you soooo missed my point. I said that's NOT what I thought. Maybe you should have read what I wrote more carefully.

No..not missed at all...I just wasn't clear in my sarcasm.

I was actually agreeing with "the point". How ironic it is that those things happen so often in here....that's why I said "irony of it ALL"...not just Matt's hypothetical.

My bad for not being more literal and clear.

As for the tandem situation, my opinion stands.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mattjw916 2]

It's all good dude...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[mattjw916 2]

Thanks for reinforcing my point about the excessive amount of overly judgmental people here that think they are entitled to the moral high-ground.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[mattjw916 2]

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If these are the guys I think they are, there is no way they would a) do something they thought beyond their abilities - which are great, or b) take a tandem passenger without the necessary explanation, safety briefing, etc.

I would have to agree with you there.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[johnny1488 1]

I am saying that when YOU strap a non skydiver to YOUR body and YOU are soley responsible for their life, YOU might think a little differently about increasing the danger on a jump that they would probably never know the difference about. If this were a student in these pics, I'm sure the jump was more for the other jumpers than the student.

Do whatever you want whenever you want when jumping. I am all for the most stupid shit you can think of. But leave first jump students out of it.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[mattjw916 2]

Like I said earlier, don't bitch at me, bitch at the TI... I just thought the picture was cool.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[mjosparky 4]

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So, then what's the _big_ problem? Premature of the hanger? Why is that anymore likely on this jump than any other? I've done faaaar more "dangerous" stuff than that then.

But that doesn't make it the smart thing to do.

A tandem is a fixed flyer. They can't move out of someone’s way. At pull time they can't track, move right or left. The tandem master is counting on everyone on that jump doing the right thing at the right time. And there is a good chance this is their first time doing it.

Tandem fatality

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jdthomas 0]

wow.. I have seen many tandem pics int he past where lurkers are very active within the skydive. I have seen one where a guy was standing on top of the tandem couple holding the drouge bridle.
And in no time during all of my tandems did I ever consider allowing any of these type of things to happen.
As a TI you owe it to yourself and the passenger to keep things safe and minimmize the risk to all.
Adding to the risk of the tandem skydive is foolish no matter what the experience level of the TI is.
Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

[Icon134 0]

For what its worth I watched a video on SDM.com the other day where this was being done as well.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3485

There's a bunch of other stuff too... but they do a Hybrid with a tandem just like in the photo shown above.

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[riggerrob 643]

Remind me to never jump at that Mexican DZ.

You don't live long enough to become a grumpy, old, grey-bearded TI by pulling stupid stunts like that.

Rob Warner
CSPA Rigger B

[popsjumper 2]

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...You don't live long enough to become a grumpy, old, grey-bearded TI by pulling stupid stunts like that...

I love it, Rob...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Remind me to never jump at that Mexican DZ.

You don't live long enough to become a grumpy, old, grey-bearded TI by pulling stupid stunts like that.

PERFECT...

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[mjosparky 4]

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>half the TMs that responded to the poll in the instructor's forum, and
>said they would possibly participate in a similar jump, are "fucked in the
>head" too.

I would do that jump too, if I could pick the other jumpers and the passenger was experienced. I just wouldn't risk a student. It pretty much goes against everything I think about a TI's responsibility towards a student. We have every right to risk our own lives; we don't have the right to risk someone else's - especially one who cannot comprehend the risks.

Tandem RW can a has be done safely. But like you say, a first time tandem passenger should not be paying for someones fun.

The jumpers in this picture where all hand picked and the tandem passenger had a "C" lic.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[stoneycase 0]

please do-tell, why one would want to become "grumpy and old?" j/k ;) i'm actually looking forward to the time when i can yell, "hey you kids! get the hell off my lawn!"

but seriously, what i don't understand here, with all the moaning and groaning is the "auto-disown" of the DZ, the TI, and Hanger. lisa goes so far to say she'd pack her shit and leave...what gives? are you all making the point that this one instance would "rule" your opinion of the 3? (dz, ti, hanger)

why not pack your shit and leave when you see TI's turning loads and cutting corners with briefing's/gear checks/etc? why not bitch and moan when you see an AFFI instruct 2 newbs (<30 J) on how to try a horny gorilla? i guess my point here is that *you* aren't on the jump, therefore, imo, *your* safety is not directly affected. sure, if you're the passenger, you have every right to scream at the top of your lungs if this just "happens". but i'd bet $10 that the jump was discussed beforehand with all parties and the passenger agreed (whether or not the passenger has the "right" or the "capability" to agree is a point for further discussion). if *you* don't like the TI's practices, don't be their passenger! it's that simple...walking off the DZ, that seems kinda childish "i'm taking my toys and going home..."

if you piss all over the DZ and everything else, just because of a single instance, or a single person, even a TI/AFFI, IMO, you're just making sweeping generalizations based on insignificant amounts of evidence. the real world consequences of that are less places to visit and jump @ and a general attitude of "holier than thou", i.e. *my* safety standards are *better* than *yours* therefore i am *better* than you.

all that being said, if my TI approached me during my 1st/2nd/3rd tandem with this opportunity i would have jumped at it. damn cool picture, and you can be sure that the passenger won't ever forget her skydive (isn't that why the TI does his/her job anyway? to excite someone, provide them with memories, open their eyes to new possibilities?)

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell