in air collision on my level 3/ learning exper.

[altichick 1]

If your profile is correct - you're still in the early stages of AFF. Its easy to become angry when you are afraid or don't understand exactly what is being discussed. I'd be interested to know if your opinion changes once you have done Cat E dives and understand recovering from instability a little better. They are some of most fun dives in the AFF program and a huge confidence boost for students.

The instructors here aren't talking about putting someone unstable at or close to pull time (which would have safety implications) but at an altitude that allows the student to see what it feels like and deal with it. And if they can't deal with it 1)they have an AFFI there to assist them and 2) they're not ready to self-supervise in freefall yet

Before we sign you off to self-supervise in freefall we have to be confident that if you get unstable (planned or unplanned) you can regain stabililty whilst staying altitude aware.

Before you add my name to you list personally I don't intentionally induce instability... and I'm not sure how many AFFI do (this would be an interesting discussion for the instructors forum)... most students will experience some unplanned instability anyway on their first unlinked or dive exits

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[AFFI 0]

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I can not believe that you would intentionally try to cause issues with a student. I'm soon to complete my Level 5 AFF and if you were my instrustor and did that to me. I would happily stand on you neck until your became cyanotic. Then proceed to lift you by the stack and stivel, make a few adjustments then set you spinning about smartly. Instructors like you are the reason I have talked to numerous people that haven't completed AFF because they didn't feel comfortable with their instructors. I have used instructors that I plan to use again and again. What is your plan when you make a student unstable and they fail to recover and are injuried or killed? Any ideas? "I'm sorry", really doesn't cut it!! I can tell you that I will never jump with you and your name is now on the last page of my log book, listed as jumpers not to fly with.

If I am working with a student all the way through the course and that student preformed every freefall maneuver perfectly with no display of instability whatsoever and I allow that student to self supervise than I am doing a disservice to that individual and the sport jumpers they will be jumping with in the near future.

A student must prove an ability to regain stability from an unstable body position that was unplanned. Barrel Rolls, Diving Exits and Front and Back Flips are a part of the progression that will introduce students to this very important skill.

In my limited experience of jumping with students (only 500 AFF jumps) I personally have witnessed perfection were this topic is concerned a couple of times, both by trained Gymnasts, so it has been rare. Much more common is the flipping and flopping and struggling which make my job exciting to say the least. Since regaining stability from an unstable body position must be proven during the student progression, in these rare cases I have been advised by instructors much more experienced than me to introduce some level (not too extreme) of unplanned instability that is done at a safe altitude.

In my life’s experience I have come to believe that in an instructional setting were you have two individuals: One being the teacher (expert) and one being the student (novice) it is imperative that for the highest level of transference of knowledge (learning) to occur each participant in the instructional setting much know, accept and play their rolls. It is likely that a student learning (with very little practical experience) has yet learned more than their teacher (with an overwhelming abundance of practical experience) has already forgotten about in the particular curriculum being taught. A little humility goes a long way and will enhance the learning process greatly.

Make it a great day,

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Andy9o8 2]

I just created a new thread in the Instructors forum so that more AFFIs can weigh in on this particular subject.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2074407#2074407

[Miami 0]

Three things in this thread I would like to coment on...

First, from countzero:

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then the instructors let go. i stay pretty stable, start to spin but i correct it. check my alti. next thing i know, my velocity goes up and, i'm vertical (feet first). then i feel my legs hit something and i twist to the right a bit.

ARCH!! is all that went through my mind. i arched as hard as i could, recovered, got stable and waved off and pulled at 6.

what had happened. is that i got caught by a wind gust and blown above one of my instructors. they stole my air so that's what stood me up. and i hit thier legs with mine as i fell past them.

This sounds like your instructors screwed up. Like Tonto already pointed out any "wind gust" would have affected both you and your instructor, and most likely this screw up was them just not dressing you or themselves properly.

Sounds like you reacted to it quite well...good job!

Then, from Tonto:

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Burbling the student is in the AFF I's tookbox for floaty students you can't stay with.

I would consider this only as a last resort. Getting under anything in the air...whether an experienced jumper, a tandem, or an aff student...should happen only accidentally. I guess I could see this being used if was really beyond your ability to get back up to a student and you needed to be there to save their life.

And last (and definitely most interesting ), from livendive:

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Whether it's via a slight shove during exit on a freeflown launch or a burble later in the dive if they nailed the exit. Either way, the purpose of the second is the same...to take them suddenly out of their comfort zone when they don't expect it and let them develop confidence in their ability to recover.

Dave, don't take this personally...I'm not trying to single you out or anything, as many others here obviously agree with you. I just totally disagree with the idea of randomly screwing with the student in an attempt to make them more confident. The course, whether it be AFF or ISP, has plenty of dives built in to practice instability to build a student's confidence. Ad libbing a push out the door or a burble in freefall seems to me to take away from that experience (what are you doing below the student, anyway? ). If the student displays an inability to become unstable during those drills then material can be added to later dives, or dives can be repeated.

A few have commented that they feel it better to learn this skill with an instructor present rather than on some random skydive with whoever may or may not be around. Well that is exactly what they do with back flips, front flips, and barrel rolls. What will a student do different from instability due to a burble from another jumper? If you feel they are not getting enough confidence from those drills why not add more of them instead of getting underneath them? During my little over 2000 AFF/ISP jumps I've never found the need to do that to any of my students, thankfully, so it just doesn't make sense to me that others would need to.

Miami

[scoot 0]

As a 27 jump wonder I am thankful for every pre-planned move within the student dive flow that made me unstable. Being able to make the corrections on my own were key to me ever going out the door by myself. Now, I do not like the idea of the surprise bump, push or shove but there are enough planned tasks with the program to get a student unstable.

And now that I know I can get back to a stable position why would I ever want to just fly belly to earth...flips, loops and rolls anytime I get the chance.

• Quote

[livendive 8]

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Dave, don't take this personally...I'm not trying to single you out or anything, as many others here obviously agree with you. I just totally disagree with the idea of randomly screwing with the student in an attempt to make them more confident. The course, whether it be AFF or ISP, has plenty of dives built in to practice instability to build a student's confidence. Ad libbing a push out the door or a burble in freefall seems to me to take away from that experience (what are you doing below the student, anyway? ). If the student displays an inability to become unstable during those drills then material can be added to later dives, or dives can be repeated.

A few have commented that they feel it better to learn this skill with an instructor present rather than on some random skydive with whoever may or may not be around. Well that is exactly what they do with back flips, front flips, and barrel rolls. What will a student do different from instability due to a burble from another jumper? If you feel they are not getting enough confidence from those drills why not add more of them instead of getting underneath them? During my little over 2000 AFF/ISP jumps I've never found the need to do that to any of my students, thankfully, so it just doesn't make sense to me that others would need to.

I'll probably regret this post, just like the last one. I was just going to stay out of this thread, as being yelled at by someone with 4 jumps isn't really on my list of desirable activities. Anyhow, I explained myself a little bit in the instructor's forum thread. I've only done the burble thing a couple of times, and it was a very quick "underpass", not hanging out below the student or letting them fall on me. Think RW vertical move underneath. Just enough to get them to feel it and rock & roll a little. Most of the time (read virtually every graduation jump), I give a little hand on the hip during exit (note to the other respondents, we're talking a LITTLE push, as in they don't feel it, just the effect). Anyhow, the purpose is the same. On backloops, barrel rolls, and front flips, the student gets a bit of performance anxiety, and the thought process in the dive flow is "OK, I'm going to try this....NOW, and NOW, and NOW", i.e. they know exactly when they're going to get unstable (or not, if they nail it). What I'm talking isn't so anticipated, the thought process is more "Now I'm going to do...HEY! I'm unstable!....ARCH! OK, things are good. That was wierd! Oh well, Dave's smiling, high five...continue with skydive." After this jump, I expect them to be able to take care of themselves self-jumpmastering and with coaches. At any point in either of those jumps, instability may arise when they don't expect it, either because they thought the sitflying on that video they saw looked cool (and they didn't clear it with anyone), or because their coach unintentionally gave them a little push/pull/burble during the jump. I'm just giving them a taste of it while they're still under my care.

You have a lot more experience than me, as do a whole bunch of others here. I have an open mind and can be convinced that this is a poor practice, but for right now think it has value. What about it don't you like? The risk exposure for the burble move is minute (less than a second) as far as time in which an inadvertent deployment would be really bad, and is likely to be worse within their next 20-30 jumps (longer exposure, less aware person beneath them, potential collision, etc). In any case, I'm more apt to drop that one completely if people convince me that's too much additional risk. It's not like I'm doing it regularly or anything anyhow. The risk exposure of a little tumble during exit due to a well-timed hand to the hip is even less. You don't think there's value in it that exceeds whatever little risk might be involved? To be honest, I don't really see any additional risk, just an opportunity to learn. For what it's worth, I've yet to have to dock on a student after this. I suppose if things had gone truly south once, I'd rethink it. Up till now though, it's only been students I've felt were quite capable of handling it (if I didn't think they were, I wouldn't have them doing a graduation jump).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Miami 0]

Hey...4 jumps is a lot these days...they know everything by their 4th jump now!

What about it don't I like...It's not so much that I don't like it, but I don't really feel it accomplishes much. It's kinda like thinking that it would better prepare the student for the future by making them do one of their jumps with no goggles on. Will it prepare them for later? Yes. Is it really necessary on a student jump? No.
I feel time could be better spent working other skills or more instability skills where a student is really working the instability. Instead of a little dirty air how about them on their back or side and spinning? Most of the time one (or more) of those drills (backflip, frontflip, or barrel roll) will end up in that situation. Takes the student by surprise and they get to figure it out with an instructor present.

Miami

[Dolph 0]

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In the past, it was very common for scuba instructors to yank off masks, grab regulators out of your mouth, and perhaps turn off your valve. At Depth. While PADI forbids it, other agencies still leave it open and good instructors do it. Tech training does a lot of it.

They stopped doing that? My, the sport has wussifyed since I quit.

"Harrasment training" under the right circumstances teaches valuable life saving skills that are needed if one intends to stay alive in the sport for a long time.

I remember catching flak from the local CMAS divers - was supposed to dive to the bottom of the pool (4m) undon my stuff, take it on again and clear my mask on the way up. Problem is I am naturally bouyant, so I had to do it while struggling to stay down. I did it but it didn't "look good enough, it looked struggling" to the old timers, so they had a guy go with me and physically hold me down (even yanking me around a bit) while I donned my stuff. Once done, he held on for maybe 15 seconds more to see how I'd react.

Sure beats "noooo no can't do that little Miss Tropical Diver might mess up her mascara" that PADI must have turned into.

[D22369 0]

Its already been said several times in this thread but on more won't hurt

--I can tell you that I will never jump with you and your name is now on the last page of my log book, listed as jumpers not to fly with***

Most unfortunate..... your fear would cause you to miss jumping with a very skilled jumper.

I have been Dave's cameraman for quite a few years now, and have yet to ever see him perform any maneouver that would put a student at additional risk....

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[jloirsdaan 0]

I can tell you that I will never jump with you and your name is now on the last page of my log book, listed as jumpers not to fly with.***

....Want some cheese with that wine??

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[yeyo 1]

During freefall on my AFF5 I felt the wind stopped hitting my right leg, 2 times, but only a split second each time.
Later in the ground I asked my AFFI what happened.
He winked and said "I burbled you, good job"
That gave me a big boost of confidence and I dont see anything wrong with it....

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[Fallosophy 0]

I did not read all the responses so I apologize if this isn't adding anything. I had an instructor intentionally spin me once at a pretty high altitude. I didn't mind at all because it was obvious what they were doing. All I did was turn back on heading.

small thingsto make students think on their feet is good
blatant reckless joking by instructors is probably not a good idea and I'm sure most do not do it.

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Kipsix:

I can understand your degree of panic as a new student in the sport. Everything to you right now is going to seem like overload and learning to skydive can be very stressful. Once you learn how to fly stable on your belly your stress level will go down. I can remember being a student.

However, there is something Glenn Bangs taught me while I was surviving his AFF Instructor rating course. PANIC stands for Past All Normal Intelligent Comprehension. I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned your PADI Instructor turning off your air. If you skipped that step of your equipment check and went into the water without doing what you were trained to do, what would happen?

When I went through my PADI training our instructor did do that to us and in my advanced course our instructor had a reputation of turning your air off under water. Although the unexpected thought of running out of air underwater scared the bejesus out of me as a new diver, I took precautionary measures to prepare myself in that event, i.e. I had a plan that I would quickly swim over to my buddy or whoever was nearby, either grab their secondary and clear it or give them the out of air signal and request a buddy breathe.

Although I do not agree with burbling a student, (I learned by not passing one of my practice eval jumps that you should never be above or below a student in freefall as it is dangerous, I failed an otherwise perfect jump at the very end when I choked and slipped under Glenn for about 4 seconds) ... I do not think that there is anything wrong with fruitlooping a student or doing something out of the ordinary on a grad jump. I do stuff with my students all the time. But I always try to make sure they are having fun. By graduation they aren't totally comfortable usually but theyare able to handle a spin release or recover from any instability. Before our students get to graduate they have to perform two barrel roles and a backward loop requiring them to get intentionally unstable on all axes.

You sound a bit uptight and nervous. I can understand that as you are learning an extreme sport (meaning you can die doing it). If you understand and accept that risk going into it, try to relax during your experience and realize most AFF instructors are very competent flyers. You can always save your own life and end the skydive by pulling that little handle. Your AFF I is your backup pull. If he or she fails, you have Cypres or Vigil. If none of those worked, dude, skydiving just wasn't your thing.

Lighten up, have fun, relax, don't panic, listen to your instructors and most of all be safe.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[Zipp0 1]

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In the past, it was very common for scuba instructors to yank off masks, grab regulators out of your mouth, and perhaps turn off your valve. At Depth.

LOL. Yep, my scuba instructor did that to me once....



ONCE.

;)

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[dorbie 0]

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Should be part of the training, ok, that is your opinion. But it isn't. If an instructor informs me that They may or may not cause me to be unstable then I can accept or decline the risk. As for a bit dramatic? Have you sat and read fatality reports lately. Skydiving is a sport where mistakes can kill you or others. In SCUBA if my instructor wants to turns of my O2 to see if I'll enter the water with out checking it. I have no issues with that. I enter the water do my first check in the water and realize something is wrong and get in the boat to fix the problem. I can't get back in the plane if my instructor causes me to have issues. What is next they pack my Rig so that I have a malfunction so that I have to cut away? should thay be part of the training at 13K ft. I have already stated that the technic would be acceptable in a tunnel. Just not at altitude with so little experience. Death is kind of perminate, don't you think.

When would you rather have an unplanned instability for the first time? When your instructor is there at 10k or when you reach to pull on your first hop & pop at 3.5k (it happened to me)?

It's not a biggie but you're maybe 10 jumps away from that and between now and they you'll be unstable many times. It may benefit you if at least once it's unplanned, high and with an AFFI there. Ultimately the guy is looking out for your long term safety and has more experience and judgement to make the call.