Are sexual relations inappropriate between a skydiver and their paying student?

[NWFlyer 2]

Consenting adults gonna do what consenting adults do, but I'm of the mind of "at least wait till the person's no longer your student."

So if you're a TI, feel free to chat 'em up after the jump, make a plan to connect later, but hell, let the student go home and come down off the adrenaline rush before you try to exercise the pussy pass. Your hit rate might be lower, but at least they're making a slightly more conscious decision.

As for instructors working with continuing students, keep it professional till they're at least cleared for solos, if not till they have their A license. Or, hand the student off to others and don't get involved in their training.

And by all means, if you bring someone you're already dating into the sport, let someone else teach them how to skydive. I think a TI providing a tandem to his/her date is okay, but if the person is going to go on and become a solo student, they ought to have someone "neutral" teaching them.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[mjosparky 4]

NWFlyer

Consenting adults gonna do what consenting adults do, but I'm of the mind of "at least wait till the person's no longer your student."

So if you're a TI, feel free to chat 'em up after the jump, make a plan to connect later, but hell, let the student go home and come down off the adrenaline rush before you try to exercise the pussy pass. Your hit rate might be lower, but at least they're making a slightly more conscious decision.

As for instructors working with continuing students, keep it professional till they're at least cleared for solos, if not till they have their A license. Or, hand the student off to others and don't get involved in their training.

And by all means, if you bring someone you're already dating into the sport, let someone else teach them how to skydive. I think a TI providing a tandem to his/her date is okay, but if the person is going to go on and become a solo student, they ought to have someone "neutral" teaching them.

Back in the day it was called "working the gold mine."

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Fast 0]

NWFlyer

Consenting adults gonna do what consenting adults do, ....

Why does everyone always find it important to police everyone elses morality.

I'm married, my days of hitting on cute new skygals are over, but please. This world is full of people trying to run other peoples lives. If it affects the outcome of training then punish that, if it doesn't let people be who they are. "You can't do that cause you might be one of those people who can't keep things separately" is just being overbearing.

Bottom line is that in most cases, it's none of anyone's business except the two involved. There would be a lot less drama on DZs if people remembered that.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[NWFlyer 2]

Fast

This world is full of people trying to run other peoples lives.

Cool your libertarian jets! Not suggesting USPA rules, federal rules, or even specific dropzone rules, just saying what I think ought to be best practice and smart judgment.

(That said, it's perfectly within the rights of a dropzone to set standards of behavior for their staff/contractors... it happens at employers all over the country. The student/instructor relationship is a little different, but colleges & universities also have similar rules for student/teacher relationships, and in the vast majority of cases there both parties would be adults).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Fast 0]

NWFlyer

(That said, it's perfectly within the rights of a dropzone to set standards of behavior for their staff/contractors... it happens at employers all over the country.

Just cause it happens doesn't make it right. Maybe I just want to look out for all those poor instructors who get boxed out by no-dating rules by the super suave freefly gods/goddesses who don't work for the DZ.

I mean, maybe no one should be able to date any student on a dropzone, that seems more fair right?

lol. The whole thing is silly, everyone on a dropzone is technically an adult and should be at least capable of making some rational decisions if they are choosing to risk their life skydiving. Everyone is working their own angles, including the students in some cases.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Maybe I just want to look out for all those poor instructors who get boxed out by no-dating rules by the super suave freefly gods/goddesses who don't work for the DZ.

Then pity the poor college professors who are boxed out of dating all those luscious undergrads.
Professionalism is what it is. Nobody forces an instructor to take the job. You take a teaching job, you act like a professional, and that includes disciplined demeanor toward your students. Wanna be a skygod who bangs the new arrivals like a stud on the Serengeti? Don't be an instructor. Or at least, FFS, wait until they're off student status.

Quote

Everyone is working their own angles, including the students in some cases.

That argument works against your point. At a college, the no-dating your student rule not only helps protect students from sexual harassment or manipulation by their instructors, it protects the student body at large, by reducing the opportunity for students to sleep their way into a higher grade, more personalized attention, etc. The same applies to students at a DZ, as I discuss in my post # 9.

[phantomII 37]

What happened to EFS????

[Andy9o8 2]

phantomII

What happened to EFS????

S w/your students.
Don't E or F them until they're off student status.

[dwhenline 0]

As some are trying to point out, it is about professionalism. If the instructors want to be viewed as professional, then they should act as such. It is poor form.
It has been pointed out on this forum, there are many examples where it is not condoned in business, academia and certainly not in my profession (medical). I would not even consider asking out a former patient.
I will also add, that as the owner of the school, I would not allow it in one of my instructors.
dwh

[Remster 30]

phantomII

What happened to EFS????

The 80's and early 90's call. They want their small club DZ's and Fandongo operations back.

Remster

[billvon 2,997]

> This world is full of people trying to run other peoples lives.

Agreed. Often they are called "employers" and tell their employees not to do all sorts of things, like drinking while flying airliners, or having sex with their students, or peeing in people's drinks, or sharing company confidential information with competitors, or preparing food while being contagious.

>Bottom line is that in most cases, it's none of anyone's business except the
>two involved.

And the person who is paying the instructor to do a certain job.

[Mickochet 0]

Sorry the employee card doesn't work if you are hiding behind the independent contractor designation for tax purposes!

If you never fall down you aren't trying hard enough.

[billvon 2,997]

>Sorry the employee card doesn't work if you are hiding behind the
>independent contractor designation for tax purposes!

Still works just fine. Employer sets the rules; you can follow them or not, and risk getting the boot.

If you disagree, show up and decide to use your own new age syllabus for the FJC and for the upper level students you teach. See how long before they fire you. (Or more accurately stop paying you.)

[TommyM 3]

Too many prophylactic (pun intended) rules bug me but I do understand the problems that can arise when the sticky business gets combined with the serious business, so it's probably not a good idea, but please no more rules.

My 6 year old granddaughter should be named Deezee, as her mother was conceived with one of the school staff while I was on student status. Someday Grandpa will have a good story to tell her when she grows up. Think of that! how many jumpers owe their grandchildren to Skydiving! I really scored!

--cap699

[skyjumpenfool 2]

I may have mentioned this somewhere before, but I almost had a date once.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Doug_Davis 0]

Andy9o8

Then pity the poor college professors who are boxed out of dating all those luscious undergrads.
Professionalism is what it is. Nobody forces an instructor to take the job. You take a teaching job, you act like a professional, and that includes disciplined demeanor toward your students. Wanna be a skygod who bangs the new arrivals like a stud on the Serengeti? Don't be an instructor.

I don't know of a definitive source listing the policy of every public or private university in our secondary education system, but a quick Google search says CUNY didn't implement such a policy til 2012, and Columbia until 2013.

[hcsvader 1]

Quote

And by all means, if you bring someone you're already dating into the sport,

What about the guys that bring girls out to the DZ to show off how awesome they are.

Is it wrong for me to steal them?

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[grue 1]

hcsvader

Quote

And by all means, if you bring someone you're already dating into the sport,

What about the guys that bring girls out to the DZ to show off how awesome they are.

Is it wrong for me to steal them?

Only if you use chloroform

cavete terrae.

[nigel99 482]

BIGUN

it's unprofessional to sleep with someone who is a paying customer.

Man, there's a lot of hookers upset with you right now.

Why are you playing the its OK for the video guy, but what about the AFF/I & TI or packer or manifest, etc?

Any staff of the DZ should wait till off student status.

It's not a moral thing.

It's a let the student keep their head in the game thing.

That is where professionalism comes in to play.

Once the beer light is on they are no longer a student

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[ouch 0]

***it's unprofessional to sleep with someone who is a paying customer.




If you ARE sleeping with them, perhaps it is inappropriate to take payment as well!

[Fast 0]

billvon

> This world is full of people trying to run other peoples lives.

Agreed. Often they are called "employers" and tell their employees not to do all sorts of things, like drinking while flying airliners, or having sex with their students, or peeing in people's drinks, or sharing company confidential information with competitors, or preparing food while being contagious.

>Bottom line is that in most cases, it's none of anyone's business except the
>two involved.

And the person who is paying the instructor to do a certain job.

I really enjoyed the condescending tone of your post. I feel like a few of the things you happened to mention are a bit different, but I guess that's just my opinion. I also already covered "just because it happens doesn't make it right" in a previous post.

If someone is sexually harassing a customer (or anyone really) then that's a problem. If they are shackin up in the classroom between jumps where people could see, that's a problem too. If the instructor is giving piss poor instruction to other students because they are distracted, that's a problem too. No where do I think it matters who fucks who at any point.

The boss is not in charge of people when they aren't working, even if they want to think so - like many do.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[billvon 2,997]

>If someone is sexually harassing a customer (or anyone really) then that's a
>problem. If they are shackin up in the classroom between jumps where people
>could see, that's a problem too. If the instructor is giving piss poor instruction to
>other students because they are distracted, that's a problem too. No where do I
>think it matters who fucks who at any point.

Do you think that it is reasonable to expect the same level of professionalism/evaluation/criticism between an instructor and an average student compared to an instructor and the person they are having a sexual relationship with?

[Freeflaw 0]

absolutely...otherwise you are both a shitty instructor and significant other.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

The boss is not in charge of people when they aren't working, even if they want to think so - like many do.

As long as they are a representative of the DZ (the time period they are employed/contract for) they the DZO has a vote.

Make hay on your own time with your own customers. I am sick and tired of the rampant unprofessional behavior in this industry. It's cost all of us money. One horny weekend wonder has a fling and breaks some tandem student's heart, and next thing you know all her friends go to the "other DZ".

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Nerra 0]

diablopilot

Quote

The boss is not in charge of people when they aren't working, even if they want to think so - like many do.

As long as they are a representative of the DZ (the time period they are employed/contract for) they the DZO has a vote.

Make hay on your own time with your own customers. I am sick and tired of the rampant unprofessional behavior in this industry. It's cost all of us money. One horny weekend wonder has a fling and breaks some tandem student's heart, and next thing you know all her friends go to the "other DZ".

The same will be happening at the 'other DZ' so it all balances out in the end.