EV sales collapse

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

  On 4/12/2023 at 7:49 PM, billvon said:

What will anti-EV people complain about now?  

They will bitch about how hard it is to get sodium.

I mean, it's not like there are any large sources of sodium just sitting around.

It's not like 'the oceans are FULL of it'.

(and again, we really need a sarcasm font)

[gowlerk 2,249]

  On 4/12/2023 at 8:17 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

It's not like 'the oceans are FULL of it'.

How hard is it to get Sodium from NaCl? Serious question IDK. After all we have oceans of H as well, but it is not free to use.

Edited April 12, 2023 by gowlerk

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

  On 4/12/2023 at 8:48 PM, gowlerk said:

How hard is it to get Sodium from NaCl? Serious question IDK. After all we have oceans of H as well, but it is not free to use.

Not super hard, but not for the amateur.

Electrolysis, the same process to get Hydrogen from water.

For the amount of hydrogen needed to power the stuff the 'hydrogen economy' talks about, it's not going to work well.

For the much smaller amount of sodium, even for millions of batteries, it would work, at least on an industrial scale.

 

[billvon 3,070]

  On 4/12/2023 at 8:55 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Not super hard, but not for the amateur.

Electrolysis, the same process to get Hydrogen from water.

Agreed.  However it is worth noting that you have to do electrolysis on a vat of molten salt to get sodium, not a container of salt water.  Which does indeed increase the difficulty level considerably.

[billvon 3,070]

  On 4/12/2023 at 8:17 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

It's not like 'the oceans are FULL of it'.

The next headline for the antis: "Sodium supplies COLLAPSE!"

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

  On 4/12/2023 at 9:13 PM, billvon said:

Agreed.  However it is worth noting that you have to do electrolysis on a vat of molten salt to get sodium, not a container of salt water.  Which does indeed increase the difficulty level considerably.

Right.

Again, not for amateurs. 

But at least mostly practical on a large-scale industrial basis.

With a bit more digging, I found that extracting sodium from Sodium Hydroxide is probably more practical and economic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castner_process

 

  On 4/12/2023 at 9:14 PM, billvon said:

The next headline for the antis: "Sodium supplies COLLAPSE!"

Ummmm...

Aren't they actually rising? 

[billvon 3,070]

  On 4/12/2023 at 9:18 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Aren't they actually rising? 

Like EV sales.  Which means they are COLLAPSING.

[kallend 2,106]

  On 4/12/2023 at 9:13 PM, billvon said:

Agreed.  However it is worth noting that you have to do electrolysis on a vat of molten salt to get sodium, not a container of salt water.  Which does indeed increase the difficulty level considerably.

Sir Humphry Davy did it in 1807 - how hard can it be?  

Sodium is already extracted on an industrial scale with the Downs process.  Electrolysis of molten salts is quite economical - after all, aluminum is extracted on a massive industrial scale by electrolysis of molten Al2O3/cryolite.  All you need is cheap electricity.

 

[wmw999 2,534]

  On 4/13/2023 at 12:05 AM, kallend said:

All you need is cheap electricity.

Sorry, crypto is already taking all of that. During the great Texas blackout of a year or two ago, the state utility commission had to pay the crypto miners several hundred thousand dollars for them to shut down their operations so that actual people could have power and maybe not freeze.

Capitalism at work.

Wendy P.

Wendy P.

[BIGUN 1,409]

  On 4/13/2023 at 11:26 AM, wmw999 said:

the crypto miners several hundred thousand dollars for them to shut down their operations so that actual people could have power

I wasn't aware of this:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/cryptocurrency/the-real-world-costs-of-the-digital-race-for-bitcoin/articleshow/99394735.cms?from=mdr

[SethInMI 174]

  On 4/13/2023 at 11:26 AM, wmw999 said:

crypto is already taking all of that.

It may be worth pointing out when it comes to electricity usage that not all crypto is equal anymore. Ethereum switched last fall to a proof-of-stake model from a proof-of-work model, which cut its electricity requirements by 99%.
So when people say "crypto miners are sucking electricity" they mean just bitcoin. 

[ryoder 1,590]

  On 4/13/2023 at 11:59 PM, SethInMI said:

It may be worth pointing out when it comes to electricity usage that not all crypto is equal anymore. Ethereum switched last fall to a proof-of-stake model from a proof-of-work model, which cut its electricity requirements by 99%.
So when people say "crypto miners are sucking electricity" they mean just bitcoin. 

Ethereum and Bitcoin are just 2 out of 9186 cryptocurrencies:

Today's Cryptocurrency Prices by Market Cap

[JoeWeber 2,823]

  On 4/12/2023 at 10:56 PM, billvon said:

Like EV sales.  Which means they are COLLAPSING.

Looking past this latest distraction, aren't Lithium Air Batteries the next possible thing? Maybe not for consumer stuff yet but out in the desert to start fe example?

[billvon 3,070]

  On 4/14/2023 at 12:37 AM, JoeWeber said:

Looking past this latest distraction, aren't Lithium Air Batteries the next possible thing?

Good for primary batteries - but not rechargeable, so not that useful for EVs.  In the future they may solve that problem but it's fairly far away.

The more useful near term technologies IMO are sodium and LFP.

[SethInMI 174]

A personal anecdote illustrating that this whole e-car ship has sailed and Brent has to let that shit go:

My next door neighbor, who flew a Trump 2020 flag, then a Trump 2024 flag, then a Lets Go Brandon flag, and who vowed during the George Floyd protests that his personal arsenal would be ready to protect our neighborhood...just bought a Tesla Model S.

It's over. 

[billvon 3,070]

  On 4/15/2023 at 2:09 AM, SethInMI said:

My next door neighbor, who flew a Trump 2020 flag, then a Trump 2024 flag, then a Lets Go Brandon flag, and who vowed during the George Floyd protests that his personal arsenal would be ready to protect our neighborhood...just bought a Tesla Model S.

Yep.  Neighbor of mine, Trump supporter, little yappy dog, just got the Cadillac EV.  Said several times he would never buy one of those tiny expensive foreign EVs - but he likes Cadillacs.

[lippy 918]

Hell, last week I was on a well site with elan electric frac fleet. If that ain’t the writing on the wall, what is???

[StreetScooby 5]

  On 4/5/2023 at 8:16 PM, gowlerk said:

It has pretty much been shown that EVs will be cheaper to run. People will are argue over the exact numbers. Are you trying to make a point here or do you just want us to research it for you? It would be pretty easy.

It was a question.  My expectation is that New York prices will be high.

[SethInMI 174]

  On 4/23/2023 at 10:06 PM, StreetScooby said:

It was a question.  My expectation is that New York prices will be high.

In Michigan, my overnight electrical rate is $0.13 / kWh.  For my car, that is about $1.07 to go 30 miles.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

  On 4/23/2023 at 10:06 PM, StreetScooby said:

It was a question.  My expectation is that New York prices will be high.

 

  On 4/23/2023 at 10:06 PM, StreetScooby said:

It was a question.  My expectation is that New York prices will be high.

It looks like a typical Tesla charge is 50kwh (that may or may not be correct, I just did a quick search and went with the first answer that had a number).

I'm paying a little under $0.10 (ten cents) per kwh. 

So it would cost me about $5 in electricity for a typical charge on a Tesla.

I'm considering a plug in hybrid for my next vehicle (probably not this year). 

A Toyota Rav4 takes about 16kwh to charge. That would cost me less than $2.

The actual cost to charge would depend on the cost of the electricity (Captain Obvious, at your service).

[billvon 3,070]

  On 4/24/2023 at 2:03 AM, wolfriverjoe said:

It looks like a typical Tesla charge is 50kwh (that may or may not be correct, I just did a quick search and went with the first answer that had a number).

A typical EV charge is 7kw.  That's because that's the average driven per day (25 miles) and you don't have to charge more than that every day, on average.  NY averages about 21 cents per kwhr, so an average daily charge will run you $1.50.

(Also 7kW is 5 hours plugged into a regular wall outlet.)

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

  On 4/24/2023 at 2:55 AM, billvon said:

A typical EV charge is 7kw.  That's because that's the average driven per day (25 miles) and you don't have to charge more than that every day, on average.  NY averages about 21 cents per kwhr, so an average daily charge will run you $1.50.

(Also 7kW is 5 hours plugged into a regular wall outlet.)

Fair enough. 

I probably should have said "full charge" instead of 'typical charge'.

My life and requirements mean that a full EV wouldn't work very well.
But a plug-in hybrid probably will work nicely.

I'd want to plug in at a few different places that I go, but that's not an issue. And a standard 110 wall outlet would suffice for most of what I'd need.

And the gas engine would allow me to go distances and to places where I couldn't plug in (which is the whole point).

[billvon 3,070]

  On 4/24/2023 at 3:07 AM, Slim King said:

How many solar panels would it take to charge it every day if the electricity is cut?

Around here? 5.
In New York?  8.

[billvon 3,070]

  On 4/24/2023 at 4:00 AM, Slim King said:

Is that 5 100 watt panels or 200 watt panels? If that's the case why don't they just provide everyone who buys the car 8 panels and you'd never need to plug them into the grid?

400 watt panels, which are the standard these days.

They don't provide them because 1) why would they do it for free? and 2) most people would have no idea what to do with them.  

[ryoder 1,590]

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