Bad Spots - Landing Strategy

[bfar 0]

Hi! I'm looking for Landing Strategys advice - particularly when you find yourself opening a good distance from the target.

I've been thought how to know if I'm going to reach my target by observing the movement of the ground in front of my eyes. I've also been shown how to optimize my brakes to reach my target. Obviously, using this method, I'm saving altitude at the cost of speed.

Now I've no intention of experimenting myself, but I was just wondering as a matter of interest, would there be any disadvantage of doing the opposite - using the front risers to increase speed at the cost of altitude?

[Freeflysmiley 2]

They can increase your penetration if you were flying into wind, but at the cost of altitude.

--------------------------------------------------
Practise the 6 P's!
--------------------------------------------------

[rasmack 0]

Just saying the obvious here, but make your decision for a landing area up high (like 2k). Make it very clear for everyone around you that you are not heading for the DZ (for example by turning for your alternate landing area). That way people will know that you are going to land out, and the car will find you quicker.
On the other hand, when you find yourself up high with no problems, be a pal and observe where the less lucky ones are landing and if they are standing after the landing.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[skybytch 273]

Quote

Now I've no intention of experimenting myself,

Why not? Experiment with your canopy and all of it's controls as often as possible - that's how you learn. Just don't do it below your decision altitude.

[councilman24 37]

Quote

Hi! I'm looking for Landing Strategys advice - particularly when you find yourself opening a good distance from the target.

I've been thought how to know if I'm going to reach my target by observing the movement of the ground in front of my eyes. I've also been shown how to optimize my brakes to reach my target. Obviously, using this method, I'm saving altitude at the cost of speed.

Now I've no intention of experimenting myself, but I was just wondering as a matter of interest, would there be any disadvantage of doing the opposite - using the front risers to increase speed at the cost of altitude?

Decreasing rate of descent allows the wind to blow you back to the target for a longer time if your upwind. If your downwind or getting blown backward, THEN front risers will minimized speed backwards and get you down out of the wind faster.

But there is no problem with doing landing approaches backwards. They all were on rounds. Of course you shouldn't be up in winds high enough that you RAM AIR is going backwards.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[azureriders 0]

I think his example puts him long and up wind and he was taught to use his breaks to slow his descent and use the wind to bring him back and his question was in this same example could he use front risers to zip on back?

If that truely is your question then I am sure some of the more qualified will chime in a correct the rest of my post, but the answer is no. Front risers are going to get you 'down' faster, they do not increase ground speed, unless you recover from a front riser induced dive. If you are long and up wind going to front risers IMO will only cause you to land farther out, someone correct me if I am wrong.

The canopy I jump seems to glide better than it floats (depending on the amount of wind), so on a long upwind spot I come back on rear risers, triming for the best glide ratio. You can experiment with that also.

[bfar 0]

Quote

Quote

Now I've no intention of experimenting myself,

Why not? Experiment with your canopy and all of it's controls as often as possible - that's how you learn. Just don't do it below your decision altitude.

Oh for sure, I do as much as I can

• Quote

[bfar 0]

Decreasing rate of descent allows the wind to blow you back to the target for a longer time if your upwind. If your downwind or getting blown backward, THEN front risers will minimized speed backwards and get you down out of the wind faster.

But there is no problem with doing landing approaches backwards. They all were on rounds. Of course you shouldn't be up in winds high enough that you RAM AIR is going backwards.

[councilman24 37]

Quote

So if I'm downwind its better to slow the decent and let the wind push me, that makes sense
If I happen to dump upwind, I'm thinking brakes will expose more of the undercanopy to the wind, and therefore slow me down too much, or even drive me backwards![/reply

NO! you've got it backwards. Talk to your instructors. Down wind means the wind is pushing you away from the airport. Last thing you want is to go farther.

Clear this up with your instructors before your next jump!!

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

• Quote

[riggerrob 643]

So if I'm downwind its better to slow the decent and let the wind push me, that makes sense
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No!

Let's try this again.

If you open downwind of the target, your best strategy is to minimize the amount of time you are exposed to the wind, so pull down on your front risers to increase your rate of descent.

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Front risers are going to get you 'down' faster, they do not increase ground speed,

Pulling down on both front riser do both, increase your rate of decent and increase your ground speed. Double fronts are what most people use to increase ground speed on final when begining to learn how to swoop.

Pulling down on both front riser will help you penatrate into the wind but at a price of losing altitude more quickly.

[GravityGirl 0]

Keep in mind that once you decide you are not going to make the LZ, your best landing area may be behind you.

Look straight down and check for hazards. Look between your current position and the LZ for any potential hazards. If it's clear, fly that clear path as far back as possible.

If it's littered with fences, powerlines, tree lines, buildings, etc, then look for a big clear landing area. Stay upwind of so you can use the wind to your advantage to put you in that desireable spot.

If it's quite windy, don't put your back to the wind. Crab yourself into position.

There are loads of variables, so this is a good conversation to have in person at the DZ.

The biggest nugget I can offer is to remember that the cleanest landing spot may be behind you. Don't get fixated on "maybe" making it back.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[bfar 0]

Quote

NO! you've got it backwards. Talk to your instructors. Down wind means the wind is pushing you away from the airport. Last thing you want is to go farther

Duh !! Right you are!! Just read my post again - got my upwinds and downwinds backwards. Clever. Dyslexic skydiving!

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...Pulling down on both front riser will help you penatrate into the wind but at a price of losing altitude more quickly.

Skydiving magazine published a series of graphs demonstrating riser tactics for recovering from long/short spots showing what different riser input will do for you in differing wind speeds.

In a nutshell it said rear risers are best to penetrate low wind speeds and front risers are best for high winds.

I've looked and looked and can't find an on-line reference to the graphs. We have it pasted on our wall at the DZ and I'll get exact numbers this weekend.

Anyone else seen and/or remember these graphs?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[NWFlyer 2]

Might consider a copy of "The Parachute and Its Pilot" by Brian Germain. Chapter 4 covers a lot of this stuff.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,990]

>Pulling down on both front riser do both, increase your rate of
>decent and increase your ground speed.

They don't significantly increase your ground speed. The reason that people use them for landing is that it increases your _descent_ speed; when you release the brakes the canopy recovers by flattening out, thus converting downward speed to forward speed. It is this flattening out that gives people more speed for landing.

Try it the next time you are basically stopped by a headwind. Pull on the front risers and see if you start booking into the wind, or if nothing much changes (other than you descend faster!)

If you do find yourself downwind, you can get a _slight_ improvement in glide (and thus penetration) by killing your slider and pulling it down, loosening your chest strap and pulling your legs up. This won't change your airspeed but it will change your L/D, and that will flatten your glide angle a bit - providing more horizontal speed.

[bfar 0]

Thanks all!! You've given me alot here to chat to my instructor.

[wmw999 2,444]

Your best landing strategy for bad spots, if you're not ABSOLUTELY SURE, EARLY that you're going to make it back, is to go for the best landing place that you know you can make it back to, and then walk back or walk to the road.

You can also concentrate on remembering which way to face to land if you can't see the wind sock.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[faulknerwn 38]

Quote

>
They don't significantly increase your ground speed. The reason that people use them for landing is that it increases your _descent_ speed; when you release the brakes the canopy recovers by flattening out, thus converting downward speed to forward speed. It is this flattening out that gives people more speed for landing.

Hmm.. I'll remember that next time I find myself behind a CRW formation and desperately needing to catch up. If you pull a little front risers it increases your forward speed. If you pull a lot of front risers it increases your descent rate. I'll shoot accuracy on my front risers all the time by changing my angle of attack. I use it for CRW all the time.

[billvon 2,990]

>If you pull a little front risers it increases your forward speed.

Right. But if you're backing up they will likely not help because they don't _significantly_ increase your forward speed, at least in my experience.

[faulknerwn 38]

It certainly appears that way to me - It certainly helps you speed up enough to catch faster canopies. Its a lot easier to tell when you're comparing yourself to a target in the sky than the ground however.

I also know on more than one occasion, we've had a CRW load far off the airport, and the only people who made it back are those who used their front risers - it definitely makes a difference.

[magnio 0]

If the area isn't exactly flat, be aware that your actual altitude may be quite different from the altimeter (which is adjusted agaist the original LZ) - so train your altitude awareness and be prepared for PLF and downwind or crosswind landings (if you don't have altitude or space for a proper landing pattern).

Bring a mobile phone and know the numbers to you DZ.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

If the area isn't exactly flat, be aware that your actual altitude may be quite different from the altimeter (which is adjusted agaist the original LZ) - so train your altitude awareness and be prepared for PLF and downwind or crosswind landings (if you don't have altitude or space for a proper landing pattern).

And sometimes grassy hills can look pretty flat until you get close to commitment (1000-1500). The better you know the surrounding areas and the best/worst outs, the better.

On my first out landing (from a 24k jump run and two slow exiters in front of me), I saw two people landing below and decided it would be safest to land with others, but as I got close I found they had landed on a ridge with a good steepness surrounding. Nailed it, but not the best spot. Turned out those two were visiting for the high alt jumprun, so it was true lemming case.

[DJL 235]

THE RESPONSE (without even reading any other posts):

Land where you KNOW you can land. Don't worry about getting back or even wonder if you can get back. Land where you KNOW you can land. Just because a point is moving up or down relative to your perspective at one elevation does NOT mean you're going to have that forward speed as you get lower. Land where you KNOW you can land.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Land where you KNOW you can land.

So true ... so true ... so true.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over