Six ways renewables increase your electricity bill

[brenthutch 444]

https://www.netzerowatch.com/content/uploads/2023/09/Renewables-Increase-Electricity-Bills.pdf
 

I have always wondered why does the free electricity from wind and solar cost so much (think California).  Now I know!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

I have always wondered why does the free electricity from wind and solar....

Why would it be free? I know you aren't the strongest at making thought out assumptions, but that one probably takes the cake.

[brenthutch 444]

10 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Why would it be free? I know you aren't the strongest at making thought out assumptions, but that one probably takes the cake.

Sorry I should have said “free”

[billvon 2,995]

I have solar and my power bill is $6 a month.  What's yours?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Sorry I should have said “free”

Still not making any sense. Don't think that MBA is paying off.

[brenthutch 444]

37 minutes ago, billvon said:

I have solar and my power bill is $6 a month.  What's yours?

$6 is what you pay, how much are getting from state and federal subsidies?  Add those back in, add the initial capital cost, divide by the lifetime of the system while accounting for ever decreasing efficiency and recalculate.

[billvon 2,995]

6 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

$6 is what you pay, how much are getting from state and federal subsidies?  Add those back in, add the initial capital cost, divide by the lifetime of the system while accounting for ever decreasing efficiency and recalculate.

I'll answer your question when you answer mine.

 

[olofscience 480]

19 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

divide by the lifetime of the system while accounting for ever decreasing efficiency

Someone hasn't done the maths on the maintenance and efficiency of a solid-state semiconductor with no moving parts, in a relatively benign thermal and chemical environment.

 

Oh wait, it's brent. He hasn't done any maths, period.

[brenthutch 444]

Depending on the season anywhere from $80 through $500, it’s a big house (4000+sf) and those polar vortexes put a hurting on our poor heat pumps. I can’t wait until this global warming thing kicks in.

Edited September 29, 2023 by brenthutch

[brenthutch 444]

3 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Someone hasn't done the maths on the maintenance and efficiency of a solid-state semiconductor with no moving parts, in a relatively benign thermal and chemical environment.

 

“The loss in solar panel efficiency over time is called degradation and it is a natural consequence of exposure of the solar panel to ultraviolet rays and adverse weather conditions. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory estimates this degradation to be between 0.5% to 0.8% per year.”

You do the math

[olofscience 480]

5 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

You do the math

Is that because you can't? 

 

Do your own maths, it's going to be fun to pick it apart. again.

Edited September 29, 2023 by olofscience

[billvon 2,995]

8 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Depending on the season anywhere from $80 through $500, it’s a big house (4000+sf) and those polar vortexes put a hurting on our poor heat pumps. I can’t wait until this global warming thing kicks in.

OK great.

I put in my first solar system around 2001.  It was a 4kw system that I paid about $15K for after the tax credits.  I expanded it to 8kw for another $2K.  It's still working on the old house.

The second system I got came with the new house.  We got the house under market for the area, so no additional costs for it.   No noticeable "decreases in efficiency."  We still get an average of about 7000 watts with peaks to 8700 watts during rain/sun events.

[brenthutch 444]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

OK great.

I put in my first solar system around 2001.  It was a 4kw system that I paid about $15K for after the tax credits.  

Ok, now let’s discuss the article and how renewables raise electric utility rates.

[jakee 1,497]

13 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Ok, now let’s discuss the article and how renewables raise electric utility rates.

Brent: Prove it!

Bill: Proved it.

Brent: Why are we talking about this?

Edited September 29, 2023 by jakee

[SkyDekker 1,465]

3 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Ok, now let’s discuss the article and how renewables raise electric utility rates.

The article doesn't mean anything without accounting for the reduction in future costs to deal with the damage of coal production and coal energy production.

[billvon 2,995]

23 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Ok, now let’s discuss the article and how renewables raise electric utility rates.

Sure, now that we have demonstrated how renewables make my power bill $6 a month.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

41 minutes ago, billvon said:

Sure, now that we have demonstrated how renewables make my power bill $6 a month.

First we need to add in the cost of a degree from MIT.

[brenthutch 444]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

The article doesn't mean anything without accounting for the reduction in future costs to deal with the damage of coal production and coal energy production.

Read the article a bit more carefully especially the “Dash for Wind” portion.  

[SkyDekker 1,465]

5 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Read the article a bit more carefully especially the “Dash for Wind” portion.  

Doesn't touch on it

[brenthutch 444]

17 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Doesn't touch on it

That is because it is an explainer on electricity markets, not an advocacy for coal. The first part dealing with gas and coal illustrates how the current market, natural gas supplemented with coal, works.  It than shows how natural gas supplemented by wind will be even more expensive.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

That is because it is an explainer on electricity markets, not an advocacy for coal. The first part dealing with gas and coal illustrates how the current market, natural gas supplemented with coal, works.  It than shows how natural gas supplemented by wind will be even more expensive.

Right, it cherry picks which costs it wants to include as part of the cost calculation.

It is like arguing that mandating lead free toys increases the cost of toys, without accounting for the future benefit of not having to pay for costs related to lead poisonings. The only people who would advocate for that are those who simply are too dumb to understand, or those who benefit from the lead industry.

[brenthutch 444]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Right, it cherry picks which costs it wants to include as part of the cost calculation.

It is like arguing that mandating lead free toys increases the cost of toys, without accounting for the future benefit of not having to pay for costs related to lead poisonings. The only people who would advocate for that are those who simply are too dumb to understand, or those who benefit from the lead industry.

Try not to get triggered by “coal”. For a moment let’s forget about coal’s externalities as it has nothing to do with the point of the article.  It explains why RENEWABLES make electricity more expensive. And to help you understand, it also explains why coal is also more expensive.

[olofscience 480]

9 hours ago, brenthutch said:

That is because it is an explainer on electricity markets, not an advocacy for coal.

Published by The Global Warming Policy Foundation, who changed their name to Net Zero Watch, who doesn't publish their funding sources.

"In 2014 The Independent described the foundation as "the UK's most prominent source of climate-change denial".[3]"

[brenthutch 444]

3 hours ago, olofscience said:

Published by The Global Warming Policy Foundation, who changed their name to Net Zero Watch, who doesn't publish their funding sources.

"In 2014 The Independent described the foundation as "the UK's most prominent source of climate-change denial".[3]"

So?  If you have a problem with that, explain why their analysis is wrong.  

[wmw999 2,449]

11 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Try not to get triggered by “coal”. For a moment let’s forget about coal’s externalities as it has nothing to do with the point of the article.  It explains why RENEWABLES make electricity more expensive. And to help you understand, it also explains why coal is also more expensive.

One of coal's main "externalities" are the long-ignored facts that it pollutes the air, even the supposedly clean plants, thereby increasing health costs; also that its extraction can be dangerous and also devastating to property and health, as well as its terminal nature - as population increases, along with increased power demands per capita, it will become scarce and more expensive. So investing in multiple strategies now, while we have options, makes perfect sense, instead of waiting for it to be an emergency for our descendents

Wendy P.