EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[brenthutch 444]

As I have said many times before, EVs remain a niche market for lefty effetes, while normal folks stick with ICE vehicles. A reality the car industry is now coming to terms with.

 

https://robertbryce.substack.com/p/ford-lost-62016-for-every-ev-it-sold

“The punchline here is obvious: Ford and the other big automakers have been spending billions of dollars to cater to the whims of a tiny segment of the overall car market — a segment that’s heavily concentrated in a handful of liberal counties. That’s a lousy business strategy.”

Mercedes-Benz reported disappointing earnings and revenues. Reuters quoted the German automaker’s CFO, Harald Wilhelm, who called  the EV sector a “pretty brutal space." Reuter said some automakers are selling EVs at prices “below the level of internal combustion engine cars despite their higher production costs.” It also quoted Wilhelm as saying, "I can hardly imagine the current status quo is fully sustainable for everybody…

Honda and General Motors “were ending a $5 billion plan to develop lower-cost EVs together just a year after announcing the effort….

Tesla missed revenue and profit targets for the third quarter. And if Musk is warning about demand, then the EV business must really be in trouble….

A few days before that, General Motors announced it would delay production of its planned Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra electric pickup trucks at a plant in Michigan. And about two weeks ago, Ford said it was cutting one of the three shifts at the plant that builds its electric F-150 Lightning pickup truck. Last month, Ford said it was halting work on an EV battery plant in Marshall, Michigan, that could get billions of dollars in tax credits under the Inflation Reduction Act.

Earlier this week, the chairman of Toyota, Akio Toyoda, couldn’t help but do a bit of a victory dance. Among the major automakers, Toyota has been the most skeptical about EVs and has instead focused much of its development efforts on hybrids. Toyoda said that automakers are "finally seeing reality" about EVs.”

[billvon 2,991]

Reality:

EV sales jumped 50 percent in Q3—which brands are celebrating?

EV sales have grown as price cuts and production increases take effect.
JONATHAN M. GITLIN - 10/17/2023

Why you may ask?

Tesla's price cuts have affected the entire sector. In September, the average price of a new EV was $50,683 versus $52,212 in August, according to Cox. And there are evidently deals out there—Cox says that incentives for EV sales were almost 10 percent of the average selling price, or $4,991 per car. (That ignores the IRS 30D clean vehicle tax credit, which now only applies to some EVs.)

 

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/tesla-is-losing-market-share-as-ev-adoption-grows-and-prices-fall/

[brenthutch 444]

28 minutes ago, billvon said:

Reality:

EV sales jumped 50 percent in Q3—which brands are celebrating?

EV sales have grown as price cuts and production increases take effect.
JONATHAN M. GITLIN - 10/17/2023

Why you may ask?

Tesla's price cuts have affected the entire sector. In September, the average price of a new EV was $50,683 versus $52,212 in August, according to Cox. And there are evidently deals out there—Cox says that incentives for EV sales were almost 10 percent of the average selling price, or $4,991 per car. (That ignores the IRS 30D clean vehicle tax credit, which now only applies to some EVs.)

 

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/tesla-is-losing-market-share-as-ev-adoption-grows-and-prices-fall/

That growth is a function of government subsidies and the manufacture selling below the cost of production, (Ford lost $60,000+ on every EV sold) hardly a sustainable business model. 

[olofscience 480]

19 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

That growth is a function of government subsidies and the manufacture selling below the cost of production, (Ford lost $60,000+ on every EV sold) hardly a sustainable business model. 

Oh look, a dishonest brent argument again...must be a day that ends in 'y'.

 

Ford is building out factories and production lines for EVs, which is why they're spending a lot and making few EVs (that's why they're building factories, duh).

 

So this random blogger on substack just divided their annual loss associated with these costs with the number of EVs sold (random blogger did it, because Brent can't do maths) and came up with the $60,000 number.

 

It's like building a $1-billion silicon fab, which produces and sells its first chip on December 31st, then these idiots saying that each chip that year was sold at $999.999 million below the cost of production then declaring that the business model isn't sustainable.

Edited October 27, 2023 by olofscience

[billvon 2,991]

27 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

That growth is a function of government subsidies and the manufacture selling below the cost of production, (Ford lost $60,000+ on every EV sold) hardly a sustainable business model. 

Not even close!

1) Ford is the ONLY major manufacturer losing money on EVs.

2) Ford loses $762 per EV sold, which is roughly 78 times less.  Although I have to give you credit that at least you got the sign right; that's remarkably accurate for one of your trolls.

[olofscience 480]

Actually cost of building an EV was a big issue in the recent UAW strikes.

According to the Ford CEO, electric vehicles require 40% less labour to make:

https://www.ft.com/content/8df00b42-4e3f-4a45-b665-2726720105e0

 

Although more recent studies have argued that it's not that simple - more labour hours are spent earlier in the supply chain for example (battery construction, etc) so they end up almost equal. But when the companies aggressively optimize this as they have for gasoline vehicles, they may eventually end up a lot cheaper.

[brenthutch 444]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ford-gm-mercedes-come-clean-on-ev-demand-weakness
 

“Mercedes-Benz financial chief Harald Wilhelm noted during a call with analysts that some traditional players are selling EVs below the pricing level of internal combustion engine vehicles despite their higher production costs, saying, "I can hardly imagine the current status quo is fully sustainable for everybody.”

“We are reducing our fixed costs by $2 billion net of depreciation and amortization as we exit 2024," Barra wrote in a letter to shareholders. "We are also moderating the acceleration of EV production in North America to protect our pricing, adjust to slower near-term growth in demand”

Aug 7 (Reuters) - Electric-vehicle parts supplier Proterra (PTRA.O) filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Monday, making it the latest company to go belly up in an industry grappling with supply chain constraints, slowing demand and a funding drought.

So you see it’s not just Ford

[olofscience 480]

39 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

So you see it’s not just Ford

Again you're arguing dishonestly, as you left out the end of that article:

"In the company's earnings call last week, Tesla CEO Elon Musk voiced his concerns that high interest rates are making it more difficult for consumers to afford buying a car and left the door open to further price cuts in the future."

 

High interest rates are not caused by EVs.

Edited October 27, 2023 by olofscience

[brenthutch 444]

1 hour ago, olofscience said:

 

High interest rates are not caused by EVs.

Who said they did?  
Higher interest rates make the already expensive EVs even less affordable.  What kind of EV do you drive Olof? 

[billvon 2,991]

1 hour ago, olofscience said:

Again you're arguing dishonestly, as you left out the end of that article:

"In the company's earnings call last week, Tesla CEO Elon Musk voiced his concerns that high interest rates are making it more difficult for consumers to afford buying a car and left the door open to further price cuts in the future.

And now some good news for EV buyers and Americans, bad news for republicans:

Good news: Personal loan interest rates continue downward course
During the last seven days, borrowers with good credit looking for personal loans prequalified for rates that were lower for 3- and 5-year loans when compared to fixed-rate loans for the seven days before.

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/personal-loan-rates-october-19-2023

[Phil1111 1,149]

50 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Who said they did?  
Higher interest rates make the already expensive EVs even less affordable.  What kind of EV do you drive Olof? 

Brent when you were younger your points of debate were much more salient. Even your hero corporation for gas guzzling vehicles has gone to the other side.

BP just announced that it is buying $100 million in Tesla electric chargers to install in its dinosaur gas stations.

[olofscience 480]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Who said they did?  

You were implying the sales slowdown was because they were EVs.

Now that you can't, you're just doing your usual slimy way of denying you said it and moving the goalposts.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

12 hours ago, brenthutch said:

As I have said many times before, EVs remain a niche market for lefty effetes, while normal folks stick with ICE vehicles. A reality the car industry is now coming to terms with.

 

https://robertbryce.substack.com/p/ford-lost-62016-for-every-ev-it-sold

“The punchline here is obvious: Ford and the other big automakers have been spending billions of dollars to cater to the whims of a tiny segment of the overall car market — a segment that’s heavily concentrated in a handful of liberal counties. That’s a lousy business strategy.”

Mercedes-Benz reported disappointing earnings and revenues. Reuters quoted the German automaker’s CFO, Harald Wilhelm, who called  the EV sector a “pretty brutal space." Reuter said some automakers are selling EVs at prices “below the level of internal combustion engine cars despite their higher production costs.” It also quoted Wilhelm as saying, "I can hardly imagine the current status quo is fully sustainable for everybody…

Honda and General Motors “were ending a $5 billion plan to develop lower-cost EVs together just a year after announcing the effort….

Tesla missed revenue and profit targets for the third quarter. And if Musk is warning about demand, then the EV business must really be in trouble….

A few days before that, General Motors announced it would delay production of its planned Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra electric pickup trucks at a plant in Michigan. And about two weeks ago, Ford said it was cutting one of the three shifts at the plant that builds its electric F-150 Lightning pickup truck. Last month, Ford said it was halting work on an EV battery plant in Marshall, Michigan, that could get billions of dollars in tax credits under the Inflation Reduction Act.

Earlier this week, the chairman of Toyota, Akio Toyoda, couldn’t help but do a bit of a victory dance. Among the major automakers, Toyota has been the most skeptical about EVs and has instead focused much of its development efforts on hybrids. Toyoda said that automakers are "finally seeing reality" about EVs.”

Not everyone, thankfully, aspires to stay a Type Zero Civilization. I doubt EV's are the next step to controlling all of the energy coming onto our planet or even a good option for just going to the store. But I'm pretty sure that the future won't be all of us happily tossing wood on a fire to stay warm because Brentonomics pointed out that there are hundreds of years of fire wood available for free and using it up before looking for the next option was smart.

Edited October 28, 2023 by JoeWeber

[olofscience 480]

2 hours ago, Slim King said:

I burn almost everything flammable (Trash or recycle) in my back yard.

FINALLY you tell us what you've been smoking. Newsflash, it's probably not good for you.

 

Not sure what the laws in Florida are, but doing that in many other countries will certainly get you in trouble.

[brenthutch 444]

11 hours ago, olofscience said:

You were implying the sales slowdown was because they were EVs.

Now that you can't, you're just doing your usual slimy way of denying you said it and moving the goalposts.

It’s one thing to not understand what I said, it is entirely different to not even understand what you said 

“High interest rates are not caused by EVs.”

You still haven’t answered my question. What EV do you drive?  At least BillV puts his money where his mouth is (he mentioned that he picked up a second hand Tesla).  Do you even own a car? 

11 hours ago, olofscience said:

[gowlerk 2,192]

7 hours ago, Slim King said:

Last week I played for both a Thunderbird Club and a Mustang Club. They are here to stay.

Thunderbirds were last built in 2005, Mustang is what Ford calls one of it's EVs.

[olofscience 480]

4 hours ago, brenthutch said:

You still haven’t answered my question. What EV do you drive?  At least BillV puts his money where his mouth is (he mentioned that he picked up a second hand Tesla).  Do you even own a car? 

Sorry brent, I won't give you any personal details, you should find other friends 

 

Good try changing the topic, too. Looks like you've run out of actual arguments, so have a great rest of your weekend!

[brenthutch 444]

46 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Sorry brent, I won't give you any personal details, you should find other friends 

 

Good try changing the topic, too. Looks like you've run out of actual arguments, so have a great rest of your weekend!

So not only no EV, you don’t even have a car…that makes me sad 

[billvon 2,991]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Thunderbirds were last built in 2005, Mustang is what Ford calls one of it's EVs.

Yep.  Mustang went EV to try to compete with Teslas.  Won't be long before gas cars are what your oddball uncle drives, and everyone else drives an EV.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

2 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yep.  Mustang went EV to try to compete with Teslas.  Won't be long before gas cars are what your oddball uncle drives, and everyone else drives an EV.

Actually, I've been told, oddball uncles drive 2009 F-150's with crack windshields and engines that rattle.

[brenthutch 444]

50 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yep.  Mustang went EV to try to compete with Teslas.  Won't be long before gas cars are what your oddball uncle drives, and everyone else drives an EV.

Define “won’t be long”

We heard the same thing about the disappearance of Arctic sea ice

Edited October 28, 2023 by brenthutch

[kallend 2,027]

 

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Actually, I've been told, oddball uncles drive 2009 F-150's with crack windshields and engines that rattle.

I'm an oddball uncle and I drive a 1946 MG.  In good company.  (The ones that are harder to recognize are JFK and Jackie, Ryan O'Neill and Ali McGraw, and Mike Love of the Beach Boys)

Edited October 28, 2023 by kallend

[billvon 2,991]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

We heard the same thing about the disappearance of Arctic sea ice

Yes we did - and they were right.  It is disappearing.

Minimum extent has gone from 17000 cu km to 4000 cu km over the past 44 years.

An excellent comparison.

[brenthutch 444]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Yes we did - and they were right.  It is disappearing.

Minimum extent has gone from 17000 cu km to 4000 cu km over the past 44 years.

An excellent comparison.

Yet it is still here, in spite of all of the prognostications of the so called experts. More ice today than a decade ago.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

11 hours ago, olofscience said:

Sorry brent, I won't give you any personal details, you should find other friends 

 

Good try changing the topic, too. Looks like you've run out of actual arguments, so have a great rest of your weekend!

So I have a different view. You have hammered Brent on the EV topic and more nonstop. I think his question is fair and you are being unfair to avoid the answer.