EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[tkhayes 348]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

'Normal' cars also sometimes don't work in extreme cold conditions. Oil and diesel turns to sludge. Batteries (yeah, ICE cars need those too) and starters don't work. So they get modified. For instance normal cars in Finland all have external power connecters which plug into power supplies in parking spaces to warm the engine and oil system before starting in the morning in winter. So as much as you may have run out of imagination before reaching a solution, warming up cold things so they work is not an insurmountable problem.

BTW - my petrol car loses a little over 10% of its fuel economy in winter and it's not even that cold here. That's just a thing to deal with that everyone has to deal with. 

Does Warming Up Your Car Actually Help? | Warming Up A Car Myths (smarttoyota.com)

[gowlerk 2,192]

25 minutes ago, tkhayes said:

block heaters also are common in Western Canada, Alberta etc.  People in the far north, arctic etc often leave their vehicles running 24/7 as they may not start again when shut off, especially when it is -40 or below.

Try starting a diesel engine with gelled fuel. -40 on both common scales is equal and is about the limit for most trucking fuels . Jet A is good for -47. Modern ICE gasoline cars in good tune will still start at -40 without a block heater if they have a fully charged battery. But with warmup time I would say my fuel economy drops by 50% in city driving. Of course the big difference is still faster refueling times. Except for the rare times when it is so cold that you can't even pump diesel from the truck stop because the pumps are frozen. That has never happened to me personally but it has been known in Edmonton a few times.

[gowlerk 2,192]

41 minutes ago, tkhayes said:

Does Warming Up Your Car Actually Help? | Warming Up A Car Myths (smarttoyota.com)

Yes TK. We know that Idling is both a waste of fuel and hard on engines. So what? No one wants to drive in a freezing car. We could all save energy by keeping the house just above freezing and wearing heavy clothing. I'll bite the bullet and spring for the fuel and pump out the carbon to stay warm.

Edited January 21, 2024 by gowlerk

[jakee 1,489]

1 hour ago, tkhayes said:

block heaters also are common in Western Canada, Alberta etc.  People in the far north, arctic etc often leave their vehicles running 24/7 as they may not start again when shut off, especially when it is -40 or below.

And I've heard that in Russia the accepted solution is to start a small wood fire under the fuel tank and engine bay (not a joke).

[jakee 1,489]

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Edited January 21, 2024 by jakee

[Phil1111 1,149]

11 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

And for that triviality a Mod gave you a thumbs up. This place is going to hell.

 

9 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Nice. You managed to insult both Wendy and myself and only needed an eleven word sentence to do it. You seldom fail to impress me.

Is it just me or is the midwinter blahs leading to more pissing contests?

[JoeWeber 2,720]

49 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

 

Is it just me or is the midwinter blahs leading to more pissing contests?

You're probably right. I can tell you that the sea surface temperature dropped to 30.9C here and that totally increases the irritation factor.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

I'll bite the bullet and spring for the fuel and pump out the carbon to stay warm.

And in Arizona they spring for the energy to air condition everything. So everyone else suffers carbon overload, increased taxes, and Brent being right on occasion, because some people live in extreme environments? Interesting outlook, there.

[ryoder 1,590]

2 hours ago, tkhayes said:

block heaters also are common in Western Canada, Alberta etc.  People in the far north, arctic etc often leave their vehicles running 24/7 as they may not start again when shut off, especially when it is -40 or below.

IN 2006 when I was ordering a new Jeep Wrangler, a block heater was an available factory option. So I ordered it. I rarely use it, but it's nice to have. I actually used it last weekend when we had 3 days of temps staying in the +8F to -11F range.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

2 hours ago, ryoder said:

IN 2006 when I was ordering a new Jeep Wrangler, a block heater was an available factory option. So I ordered it. I rarely use it, but it's nice to have. I actually used it last weekend when we had 3 days of temps staying in the +8F to -11F range.

I leased PT6's into Alaska for a while. Now and again they'd come back with engine heaters attached.

[gowlerk 2,192]

4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

And in Arizona they spring for the energy to air condition everything. So everyone else suffers carbon overload, increased taxes, and Brent being right on occasion, because some people live in extreme environments? Interesting outlook, there.

Yes, there’s a significant level of cynicism in most of us around the issue. 

[billvon 2,991]

19 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Half of the folks who buy EVs go back to ICE vehicles on their next purchase.

It's getting to the point where it's safe to assume everything you post is a self-serving lie.

"While there are several groups who perform surveys of EV drivers, Plug In America’s database
includes EV drivers with years, or even decades, of experience driving electric. From December
2022 through February 2023, Plug In America surveyed over 3,300 electric vehicle (EV) owners
and nearly 600 individuals interested in purchasing an EV . . . 
EV owners are generally satisfied with their purchases; 90% say that is it “likely” or “very likely”
that their next vehicle purchase will be an EV."

https://pluginamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/2023-EV-Survey-Final.pdf

[JoeWeber 2,720]

13 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Yes, there’s a significant level of cynicism in most of us around the issue. 

Anyone can do cynicism, hypocrisy is where we shine. On that point Brent is right. 

[normiss 800]

8 hours ago, jakee said:

'Normal' cars also sometimes don't work in extreme cold conditions. Oil and diesel turns to sludge. Batteries (yeah, ICE cars need those too) and starters don't work. So they get modified. For instance normal cars in Finland all have external power connecters which plug into power supplies in parking spaces to warm the engine and oil system before starting in the morning in winter. So as much as you may have run out of imagination before reaching a solution, warming up cold things so they work is not an insurmountable problem.

BTW - my petrol car loses a little over 10% of its fuel economy in winter and it's not even that cold here. That's just a thing to deal with that everyone has to deal with. 

My F250 diesel had a factory engine warmer plug. Better than most commercial diesels that are left running for hours in the cold.

[ryoder 1,590]

7 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Try starting a diesel engine with gelled fuel. -40 on both common scales is equal and is about the limit for most trucking fuels . Jet A is good for -47.

Will diesels run on Jet A?

[billvon 2,991]

2 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Will diesels run on Jet A?

We used to run a backup diesel generator at Otay on jet fuel.

 

[JoeWeber 2,720]

3 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Will diesels run on Jet A?

My tractors do and so did the truck of a former pilot who didn't think I knew what he was up to. Maybe Prist additive would solve the icing problem.

[kallend 2,027]

On 1/21/2024 at 5:46 AM, jakee said:

'Normal' cars also sometimes don't work in extreme cold conditions. Oil and diesel turns to sludge. Batteries (yeah, ICE cars need those too) and starters don't work. So they get modified. For instance normal cars in Finland all have external power connecters which plug into power supplies in parking spaces to warm the engine and oil system before starting in the morning in winter. So as much as you may have run out of imagination before reaching a solution, warming up cold things so they work is not an insurmountable problem.

BTW - my petrol car loses a little over 10% of its fuel economy in winter and it's not even that cold here. That's just a thing to deal with that everyone has to deal with. 

My 2011 Subaru loses about 15% of its gas mileage when it gets Chicago cold.  It also gets harder to start.

[billvon 2,991]

A woman in Australia used her EV to power her son's dialysis machine and save his life during a power outage.  Reality!

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/01/amazing-queensland-mum-uses-electric-car-to-save-sons-life-with-dialysis-during-power-outage

[SethInMI 174]

Since the "EVs in the cold / the Chicago event" has come up a lot in this thread recently I can add my 0.02 on what I have read.

Obviously as others have noted, Teslas have been used successfully in the winter for many years (Norway is a great example, but in the Midwest and Canada many many Teslas are used throughout the year, I'm in Michigan after all)

What happened in Chicago seems to be some Superchargers near O'Hare were off line which is unusual.  This may have caused a number of people coming from the airport with depleted cars to get stuck trying to get to the next nearest charger. Also their batteries would have been cold, and that causes a slower charge rate which exacerbates the wait time for others. Having better destination chargers at airports (or in other places like apartments or on-street parking) will go a long way to mitigating this issue.

[wmw999 2,447]

27 minutes ago, SethInMI said:

What happened in Chicago seems to be some Superchargers near O'Hare were off line which is unusual.

I’m sorry, you must be new here; you posted actual information instead of bluster and posturing. But it’s good information…

Wendy P. 

[airdvr 210]

On 1/7/2024 at 10:54 AM, SethInMI said:

I came to the same conclusion many years ago. Several times a year I rent the pickup that our local big-box store has available so I can haul things, or borrow a family van to do that as well.  Way cheaper.

Not going to throw rocks at anyone who wants to own a pickup though, sometimes it is just nice to have a capability at your finger tips, even if you rarely need it...but people need to understand how much that actually costs them. 

Used to be those big box rentals didn't allow you to tow anything.  I don't know if it's still like that.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

4 hours ago, SethInMI said:

.. This may have caused a number of people coming from the airport with depleted cars to get stuck trying to get to the next nearest charger. Also their batteries would have been cold, and that causes a slower charge rate which exacerbates the wait time for others...

The Tesla has a battery heater, which is needed to get the battery up to proper temp to charge. The battery can be damaged if it's charged too fast when it's too cold.
If the battery is depleted (below 40% IIRC), the heater is disabled.

So, when it was super cold, the battery wouldn't heat itself. So the charge rate was throttled back. The heater would come on once the car was plugged in, but with the very low temps, it wouldn't bring the battery up to temp very fast.
So some people had to wait.

Not a whole lot different than all the folks that had to wait for a tow truck when their car was too cold to start due to weak battery, thick oil, or gelled up diesel fuel.
Last week was a real pain for the refrigerated trailers that I pull. The shop guys were really overloaded with trailers that wouldn't start. No, frozen freight wasn't going to thaw, but it's technically 'temperature controlled'. There are a variety of things that need to be kept from freezing. A truckload of Snapple in glass bottles makes a REALLY big mess if it freezes.

[billvon 2,991]

26 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The Tesla has a battery heater, which is needed to get the battery up to proper temp to charge. The battery can be damaged if it's charged too fast when it's too cold.
If the battery is depleted (below 40% IIRC), the heater is disabled.

I would note that if you are navigating to a charger using the car's navigation system, then 1) the car knows how far it has to go and 2) the car knows whether the charger is working and if there's a line.  Under those conditions - charger available, range adequate - it will precondition the battery anyway.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

1 minute ago, billvon said:

I would note that if you are navigating to a charger using the car's navigation system, then 1) the car knows how far it has to go and 2) the car knows whether the charger is working and if there's a line.  Under those conditions - charger available, range adequate - it will precondition the battery anyway.

True, if there's adequate battery available to both get you there and heat the battery.

Tesla has that part of it figured out fairly well.

Other independent apps aren't so good.