Spotting skills

[skydivermom 0]

***UHHHHH you should spot no matter what plane you are jumping from.

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It's not the plane that is the issue.....it's the fact that at Skydive San Marcos they use a GPS system. It's going to be a little hard to spot when I can't get my head out the door and look straight down I would love to be albe to continue spotting but it just doesn't happen at SSM...at least not MUCH.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[Ron 10]

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It's not the plane that is the issue.....it's the fact that at Skydive San Marcos they use a GPS system. It's going to be a little hard to spot when I can't get my head out the door and look straight down I would love to be albe to continue spotting but it just doesn't happen at SSM...at least not MUCH.

Go to a different DZ if they will not let you open the door and check your spot. If they have a problem with you doing that (not saying SSM does), drive to a DZ that will let you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skydivermom 0]

Thanks, I will ask them about that next time I go there. It makes no sense to spend time and effort learning a skill (a very important one at that) If I can't use it!

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Im really confused on why you cant spot at a turbine dz?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Ron 10]

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Im really confused on why you cant spot at a turbine dz?

1. Most do not want to spot.
2. A good number don't know HOW to spot.
3. Those who do know how to spot, don't know how to spot a large plane with mutliple groups. This costs the DZ money in go arounds and risks people landing off.

For these reasons its easier for jumpers to sit back and let the pilot and the GPS spot. Its not better, its not safer, but skydivers are lazy by nature and don't want to be bothered, or don't want to risk getting yelled at if someone lands off. Plus most don't have a clue how to spot...And its easier just not to learn.

All really bad reasons....Learn to spot.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

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For these reasons its easier for jumpers to sit back and let the pilot and the GPS spot. Its not better, its not safer, but skydivers are lazy by nature and don't want to be bothered, or don't want to risk getting yelled at if someone lands off. Plus most don't have a clue how to spot...And its easier just not to learn.

It brings some problem too: if guys in the first group can not spot, they might go out later than they should, so it would be almost no chance for the last solos (except wingsuites) to complete their freefall plane if they want to land in.

What is wrong with GPS? I think its quite the same fly by GPS or tell the pilot to fly over the field heading some certain landmark. We can jump through even cloes clouds, so having GPS allows us to jump instead of riding the plane down.

I know at least one club they have a rule: only a member is allowed to spot for the plane.

[Ron 10]

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It brings some problem too: if guys in the first group can not spot, they might go out later than they should, so it would be almost no chance for the last solos (except wingsuites) to complete their freefall plane if they want to land in.

Thats why I said people don't know how to spot. Most people don't want to learn, or don't bother to learn correctly.

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What is wrong with GPS?

1. You never learn how to spot.
2. You are not looking out the door and not checking for aircraft.
3. You are not looking fo cloud clearance.
4. The pilot has an engine and WILL make it back even if you don't. Being a pilot, and having a cool toy like a GPS does not mean you know shit about spotting. Some of the worst spots I have been on have been pilot spotted GPS.

GPS can be great to help. Some pilots can GPS spot better than any skydiver. But its YOUR butt on the line, not his.

Learn to spot. Look out the aircraft.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

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1. You never learn how to spot.
2. You are not looking out the door and not checking for aircraft.
3. You are not looking fo cloud clearance.
4. The pilot has an engine and WILL make it back even if you don't. Being a pilot, and having a cool toy like a GPS does not mean you know shit about spotting. Some of the worst spots I have been on have been pilot spotted GPS.

GPS can be great to help. Some pilots can GPS spot better than any skydiver. But its YOUR butt on the line, not his.

1: I disagree. Spotting is a part of the Finnish B exam. Instructors are teaching even from turbine AC.

2: There is no connection between GPS and being careless or irresponsible.

3. I disagree. Not all planes have deiceing, so we are looking for cloud clearance too.

4. We have jumping pilots or flying jumpers. One man has became an instructor before I even have born... He is flying 172,207 regulary.

For the other side: I was jumping in a DZ. (AC )Operators has charged for throwing a streamer because its cost flight time, so it was skipped most of the time.There are rules that under what condition streamer should be thrown.

Plane was flying by GPS, but some experienced did the spotting.

[Ron 10]

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1: I disagree. Spotting is a part of the Finnish B exam. Instructors are teaching even from turbine AC

OK so you disagree? And? The USPA has spotting as a requirement for the "A" license. Just because you stuck your head out and looked down and said OK, does not mean you know how to spot.

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2: There is no connection between GPS and being careless or irresponsible.

Sure there is if you rely on the GPS to do your spotting. Hint, the GPS will land on the runway with the plane, you may not.

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3. I disagree. Not all planes have deiceing, so we are looking for cloud clearance too.

Not if you are not looking out the door. Also you don't need deice to go into a cloud, and you can be OVER a cloud and not need deice even if there is Ice in the cloud.

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4. We have jumping pilots or flying jumpers. One man has became an instructor before I even have born... He is flying 172,207 regulary.

So? In one answer you claim that you can spot...In another you claim the pilot does. Heres a tip. The pilot will land on the Airport, he has a plane. YOU are responsible to make sure you exit at a point you will have a safe jump....The pilot only has to make sure you are not a danger to things on the ground.

But hey, you claim you know how to spot? Cool.

You wanna trust a Pilot or a GPS? Cool. Just don't expect me to follow that dangerous practice....And I don't care how experienced the pilot is.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[popsjumper 2]

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......2: There is no connection between GPS and being careless or irresponsible....

I choose to respond only to that one.

Depending on GPS and not spotting IS careless and irresponsible. Unfortunately, spotting is almost a lost art for skydivers.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Reading this from you guys really pleases me on my AFF and my A lis progression. I started to learn about spotting in AFF. In AFF it was the instructor taking the winds and a picture and me trying to figure out jumprun, where I was going to leave the plane, where id be when I deployed, and then where I would set up for my landing. Every lesson got a bit more involved. Same with up to now. People spot, and I am learning it, granted every time I spot we are slightly long and once it landed me into a herd of animals but I get better at it. Sometimes if I am not first or last out I do forget, and I kinda am uncomfortable spotting at a new DZ but I at the very least check down , out, left and right for traffic.

I had been under the impression that GPS malfunctions quite a bit. Maybe I was only taught that so I would not relay on it a mechanical device and would go by what my eyes see. Either way, if I were to find a DZ that would not let me spot I would not go there. Landing out can cause death. Not the pilots death, not the DZOs death (unless he jumps that load) but MY death. And at the very least it causes tired legs and missed loads when trying to walk back.

I suck at this sport, but I am trying not to. To the original poster, if you feel something is unsafe to do or not do, it is YOUR responsiblity to fix it for yourself, if that means a new DZ or pissing people off because you are spotting, then in my opinion that is others problems. I personally have never had anyone get upset in real life about my questions and my desire to expand my knowledge and spotting and seperation have been what I have been focusing on since jump 18 and pretty much talk about it with Shimmel any chance I get. It took me till that jump to realize the importance of getting deeper into this area, I was lucky though.... I started at a turbine DZ that taught me basics of the art early.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Just because you stuck your head out and looked down and said OK, does not mean you know how to spot.

First of all I have not stated that. Anyway you have to do that. You should be able to decide if that spot is good for you or not....or trust oneone with that.

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Sure there is if you rely on the GPS to do your spotting. Hint, the GPS will land on the runway with the plane, you may not.

It has happened and it may happen again. Anyway I do avoid land on the runway.

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In Reply To
4. We have jumping pilots or flying jumpers. One man has became an instructor before I even have born... He is flying 172,207 regulary.

So? In one answer you claim that you can spot...In another you claim the pilot does. Heres a tip. The pilot will land on the Airport, he has a plane. YOU are responsible to make sure you exit at a point you will have a safe jump....The pilot only has to make sure you are not a danger to things on the ground.

OK. Here comes again for you. He had his skydiving instructor license before I was even born. I do trust him wether he jumps and spot or even fly.

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But hey, you claim you know how to spot? Cool.

YEah. I do it for myself or in a scale of 172-207. I don't think that I can plan the jumprun of a C208 or Twin Otter(or bigger) that way the everone can make it back in all wind conditions.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Im really confused on why you cant spot at a turbine dz?

1. Most do not want to spot.
2. A good number don't know HOW to spot.
3. Those who do know how to spot, don't know how to spot a large plane with mutliple groups. This costs the DZ money in go arounds and risks people landing off.

4. Turbine = more people, so less chance to spot. Someone that moves quickly to FF at an Otter DZ isn't likely to be near the door very often. And many of these larger DZs just have one of the cameramen near the door do the spotting anyhow.

[speedy 0]

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What is wrong with GPS?

1. You never learn how to spot.
2. You are not looking out the door and not checking for aircraft.
3. You are not looking fo cloud clearance.
4. The pilot has an engine and WILL make it back even if you don't. Being a pilot, and having a cool toy like a GPS does not mean you know shit about spotting. Some of the worst spots I have been on have been pilot spotted GPS.

GPS can be great to help. Some pilots can GPS spot better than any skydiver. But its YOUR butt on the line, not his.

Learn to spot. Look out the aircraft.

What on earth are you talking about?

GPS is a useful tool for knowing exactly where you are. It can also be a helpful tool in checking the wind at various altitudes.
1. GPS cannot spot and cannot stop people learning how to spot.
2. Why am I not looking out of the door? GPS does not stop you looking out of the door.
3. Why am I not looking for cloud clearance? I never expect GPS to tell me whether the are clouds in the area.
4. The worst spots by the pilot would still be the worst spots with or without GPS. Just because the pilot knows where he is, does not mean he knows where the spot is.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Dolph 0]

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1:
OK so you disagree? And? The USPA has spotting as a requirement for the "A" license. Just because you stuck your head out and looked down and said OK, does not mean you know how to spot.

A matter of rule enforcement perhaps? Locally in Denmark, spotting is also required. When I had to get my checkout for that, I had to spot 5 times. Two first were relatively simple, where I was given ample time and a good apprach by the polit. The next two I had plenty of time, but pretty bad final by the pilot. The last one I had short time and a bad final.

I dumped on #4 and had to redo it. Landed in, but didn't get out at the right place.

I suppose if sticking yer head out the door and saying "mmm yup this is ok" qualifies as "spotting", then having such a requirement is silly and pointless.

But, and I gather this strengthens your point, we only run small Cessna's in Denmark. Even as a newbie, you're not gonna be able to avoid being responsible for the (first) spot. And of course there's some general peer pressure too - if you land out on someone else's bad spot, it's likely you are going to catch more shit than the person spotting - everyone is responsible for their own spot after all.

Having small clubs and small planes encourages good spotting. On the two trips abroad I've been on (big turbine DZs) spotting was done exclusively by the pilot. We even had some tandem masters getting extremely angry after a guy from our club ordered a go-around because of bad spot/clouds. I wonder if he had had the courage and confidence to do that had he not been proficient in spotting.

[Ron 10]

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First of all I have not stated that. Anyway you have to do that. You should be able to decide if that spot is good for you or not....or trust oneone with that.

Again you would rather trust someone else than do it yourself.

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OK. Here comes again for you. He had his skydiving instructor license before I was even born. I do trust him wether he jumps and spot or even fly.

And again you would rather trust someone else to spot for you.

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YEah. I do it for myself or in a scale of 172-207. I don't think that I can plan the jumprun of a C208 or Twin Otter(or bigger) that way the everone can make it back in all wind conditions.

Then you don't know how to spot. Knowing how to spot is being able to put EVERYONE on the DZ.

It seems you would rather just trust the pilot than learn a life saving skill.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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4. Turbine = more people, so less chance to spot. Someone that moves quickly to FF at an Otter DZ isn't likely to be near the door very often. And many of these larger DZs just have one of the cameramen near the door do the spotting anyhow

Good point, but if a guy really wanted to learn how to spot, I would let him sit near the door and he could just get out of the way for my exit.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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What on earth are you talking about?

I am talking about how skydivers never learn to spot. How they trust pilots, or others to determin when they can get out of a plane, and how most could not spot a solo from 13.500.

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GPS is a useful tool for knowing exactly where you are. It can also be a helpful tool in checking the wind at various altitudes.

You carry one of these in your jumpsuit? I don't. So all that info does the SKYDIVER very little good. So if you are gonna allow the pilot to tell you when to go (Which is not spotting) then the GPS only helps the pilot and not the jumper learn to spot.

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1. GPS cannot spot and cannot stop people learning how to spot

Sure it can if people like you say its so much better than a skydiver learning how to spot. "Well, if its so good, why should I learn? I'll just trust the pilot since he has a GPS."

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2. Why am I not looking out of the door? GPS does not stop you looking out of the door.

Well since you are letting the pilot spot since you don't know how...You don't bother to open the door till the green light comes on. At some DZ's if you open the door before the light, people start yelling at you. Once the light comes on, they then start yelling at you to jump.

A Sign in an otter at a large DZ. "When the green light comes on, check for traffic and jump".

Notice it does not say "spot" and if you wait until right before you are supposed to exit to open the door and look out, how can you tell any drift from altitude?

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3. Why am I not looking for cloud clearance? I never expect GPS to tell me whether the are clouds in the area.

Again if you are not opeing the door till the green light comes on, how are you spotting? How are you looking for clouds? How are you checking drift?

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4. The worst spots by the pilot would still be the worst spots with or without GPS. Just because the pilot knows where he is, does not mean he knows where the spot is.

EXACTLY, which is why I find it hard to believe you are even arguing the point. Unless you just want to argue with me for some reason.

If the pilot uses GPS to spot, you are not directing the aircraft to the exit point. so I fail to see how you can learn to spot if you are letting the pilot use his GPS, or Loran C, or him just flying the plane and using his eyes...If you are letting the pilot spot, you are not spotting. If you don't spot you will never learn how to spot.

True story: More than once I have opend the door before the green light and got yelled at. One time I stuck my head out the door and looked around. The DZ was quite far away. The green light came on and I was still nowhere near the DZ. But the people in the plane started yelling at me to go. I would not have made it back, so I did nothing. They REALLY started yelling. So I took my group and pulled them from the door and let the yellers leave. This took 10 seconds, and they STILL didn't make it back. I looked out again, found a good exit point and my group and the rest of the plane made it back.

So, if you want to trust the green light, feel free. If you want to trust the pilot with the GPS to tell you where you will exit...Again, feel free.

But since it is my ass on the line, I will decide where I will exit the plane.

Off landings are the first step in MANY accident reports. It would be wise for people to learn to spot to avoid that problem,a nd I find it strange you want to argue that.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Looking straight down is the first skill to master when learning to spot.
Try looking at the horizon in front of the airplane, then drawing a imaginary line to underneath you.
Similarly, look at the horizon near the wing tip and draw an imaginary line to underneath you.

That is exactly how to look straight down. I've seen people look under the wing of a twin Beech, yell "There's the DZ!" and leave . . . 2 miles early.

The plane may be tilted one way or the other, but the horizon will never lie.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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They REALLY started yelling. So I took my group and pulled them from the door and let the yellers leave. This took 10 seconds, and they STILL didn't make it back.

Karma, bay-bee.

[speedy 0]

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Sure it can if people like you say its so much better than a skydiver learning how to spot.

You are the one saying GPS can spot, not me. I am saying GPS can tell you where you are.

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Well since you are letting the pilot spot

I never said I let the pilot spot, I let the pilot tell me where I am. Actually the pilots at my DZ are rather surprised when I tell them that I determine the spot.

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A Sign in an otter at a large DZ. "When the green light comes on, check for traffic and jump".

Notice it does not say "spot"

And don't we know why! It's because most skydivers cannot spot.

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Again if you are not opeing the door till the green light comes on

Where the hell did you get this crazy idea that the door is only opened when a green light comes on ? At our DZ the yellow light comes on 2 miles before the DZ. The yellow means "open the door and start checking the spot". Green comes, this is the spot where if we start jumping , everyone on the plane should land at DZ. When green goes out, we have flown too far and really you should ask for a go around. This does not stop them jumping though, because they can't spot!

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If the pilot uses GPS to spot, you are not directing the aircraft to the exit point.

I've seen some real disasters with people who are not pilots trying to direct a plane to the DZ at 14000ft using sight only.

Again, determining the spot has nothing to do with GPS. But, GPS is invaluable in getting you there.

I am going to trust GPS over anyones eyes to tell me if the plane is 0.2 miles before the DZ or 0.3 miles before the DZ. Before you put words into my mouth, that does not mean I will not bother to check with my eyes that the DZ is there underneath me before I jump.

You are living in a dream world if you expect skydivers with a few hundred jumps to be able to ...
1) look out of an aircraft at 14000ft and determine what their freefall drift will be when falling
2) what the winds are at opening altitude.
3) where they are to the nearest 0.5 of a mile from the DZ
4) know the direction the plane is flying to within 30°
5) and finally have any idea how much ground speed the plane has to within a 20 kt margin of error.

You need all of the above information to determine the spot, but there are people out there that think its enough just to look out of the door.

The spot at our DZ is determined on the ground before anyone has jumped. If it's wrong, it's usually because some smart ass who thought they could spot has decided not to go when the green light came on.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[phoenixlpr 0]

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The spot at our DZ is determined on the ground before anyone has jumped. If it's wrong, it's usually because some smart ass who thought they could spot has decided not to go when the green light came on.

Agree. We have the same practice. Spot on the map.

[Kris 0]

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You are living in a dream world if you expect skydivers with a few hundred jumps to be able to ...
1) look out of an aircraft at 14000ft and determine what their freefall drift will be when falling
2) what the winds are at opening altitude.
3) where they are to the nearest 0.5 of a mile from the DZ
4) know the direction the plane is flying to within 30°
5) and finally have any idea how much ground speed the plane has to within a 20 kt margin of error.

You need all of the above information to determine the spot, but there are people out there that think its enough just to look out of the door.

I could do that at around 150 jumps. Then again, I learned at a Cessna DZ and got my IAD Jumpmaster rating at around 120 jumps.

Spotting is 70% science / 30% art & experience. No, I don't have specifics on if we're within 0.005 degrees of jumprun, but I DO make sure I know the winds aloft and where jumprun is at before I start jumping for the day.

With that information, you'd better believe that I can look out the door of an Otter at 14K, or hang over the ramp of a CASA and be able to accurately check the spot. I've pulled back from an early spot and kept the entire load from landing off airport in an Otter.

You need to have a bit more faith in training and experience.

Feel free to use GPS, but make sure you still look out the door.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[tso-d_chris 0]

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You are living in a dream world if you expect skydivers with a few hundred jumps to be able to ...
1) look out of an aircraft at 14000ft and determine what their freefall drift will be when falling
2) what the winds are at opening altitude.
3) where they are to the nearest 0.5 of a mile from the DZ
4) know the direction the plane is flying to within 30°
5) and finally have any idea how much ground speed the plane has to within a 20 kt margin of error.

You need all of the above information to determine the spot

And, spotting is a prerequisite skill US jumpers are supposed to learn before obtaining their A license. It is not unreasonable to teach this skill to student/novice jumpers.

For Great Deals on Gear

[Ron 10]

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You are the one saying GPS can spot, not me. I am saying GPS can tell you where you
are.

Ah, yeah. So you let the GPS tell you where you are...what is that if its not letting it spot for
you?

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I never said I let the pilot spot, I let the pilot tell me where I am. Actually the
pilots at my DZ are rather surprised when I tell them that I determine the spot.

That whole paragraph tells me that they think they are spotting. I mean if they were surprized then
that means they think they were spotting.

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I've seen some real disasters with people who are not pilots trying to direct a plane to the
DZ at 14000ft using sight only.

And I have seen some real disasters when the skydivers think the pilot can do a better job.

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I am going to trust GPS over anyones eyes to tell me if the plane is 0.2 miles before the DZ
or 0.3 miles before the DZ. Before you put words into my mouth, that does not mean I will not bother
to check with my eyes that the DZ is there underneath me before I jump.

Great, so you look out the door, but trust the GPS over you. That *is* letting the GPS spot dude.

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You are living in a dream world if you expect skydivers with a few hundred jumps to be able
to ...
1) look out of an aircraft at 14000ft and determine what their freefall drift will be when falling
2) what the winds are at opening altitude.
3) where they are to the nearest 0.5 of a mile from the DZ
4) know the direction the plane is flying to within 30°
5) and finally have any idea how much ground speed the plane has to within a 20 kt margin of error.

Never said Expect them to do it...I said LEARN to do it. You and your GPS love will not teach them
anything more than to turn into lemming when they see a green light.

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1) look out of an aircraft at 14000ft and determine what their freefall drift will be when
falling
2) what the winds are at opening altitude

Thats why you look out the door on the ride to altitude.

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3) where they are to the nearest 0.5 of a mile from the DZ
4) know the direction the plane is flying to within 30°
5) and finally have any idea how much ground speed the plane has to within a 20 kt margin of error.

They don't need to know any of that. It does not matter if they are .5 or .6. All that matters is
they know if they can make the DZ. The distance, angle, or ground speed is not needed information.
Only knowing if they can make the DZ.

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The spot at our DZ is determined on the ground before anyone has jumped. If it's wrong, it's
usually because some smart ass who thought they could spot has decided not to go when the green
light came on

Or, some smart ass on the ground thought the pilot knew more than he did and lept out like a trained
seal on the green light.

You keep saying you spot, but then claim the GPS is so much better than you. Its pretty funny to see
you claim you spot, then everything you say after that is giving the spot to the pilot.

Do you think on a demo into the middle of a city the jumpers spot the plane themselves, or do you
think the pilot uses GPS to fly to a point over the ground?

*hint I have a PRO rating and have over 100 live demos and well over 500 training jumps for those
demos...And not once did the pilot do anything but point the nose into the wind at altitude. and
then take directions from the jumpers.

Also the only demo I ever landed out on was a mock HALO insertion for the military out of a C-130. We let the Airforces cool wizbang system (much better than anything civilians have) determine the release point for the operation. Its called HARP (High Altitude Release Point) and it takes a computer, a guy trained to use that computer and ALL off the flight information such as winds at different altitudes..And mixes it all up and spits out a release point.

We missed. So much for the Armys cool toys huh? But I guess yours are better.

I'm done here. Keep doing what you ahve been if it makes you happy. But I would rather people learn
to spot.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334