dirtbox 0 #51 December 21, 2013 I was one of those 500 jumps in 6 months kind of people, I also had 3 years in sport though not much of the 2 middle years involved much jumping due to working in Asia (20ish jumps in those 2 years). In the 6 months of jumping daily I saw four or five ambulance rides, one medivac chopper, one fatality spread over 6 DZs and about 180 days of jumping. In the 2 years since I have jumped at another 5 or 6 different dzs seen about 10 ambulance rides, no more fatalities or medivac chopper rides. (hell I was one of those ambulance rides on jump number 2008). Days at the DZ are days at the DZ. Someone could come out and make 500 jumps and see 5 fatalities or none and that isn't relevant to the time spread of those days IMHO, it comes down to the person and what they are willing to learn and what sort of person they are outside of skydiving. I have seen jumpers with 100 jumps and 12 months in sport make better decisions than those with 10 years and 10k jumps (of course the opposite is more generally true). Ultimately, as this is tied to the TI rating requirements, I feel the current system is dated. Setting arbitrary numbers is not the best way to measure someones skill/ability and aptitude to be a TI. Instead there should be more of a focus on sound decision making processes and in air skills (not dis-similiair to the way the AFF course is done). .02c Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChuckMartin 0 #52 December 22, 2013 When we say time in sport what we mean is time learning. What if the person has 500 jumps in a year and the other 200 in three years. According to the logic a few have said the person with three years should know more. What about somebody with 4000 jumps in 6 years or 500 in 20 years? The guy with 20 years in will know more about out dated things and maybe some random facts from the olden days but the guy with 4000 jumps will know way more about things that matter and will be a much better flyer. Knowledge is not gained simply by time but by learning. Somebody with 500 jumps in a year is pretty dedicated 500 in three, not so much. With anything it comes down to the person more then anything. There will be people with the same number of jumps and the same time in and one person will be better and know more then the other. Somebody said that here that some people have 500 jumps and some people have the same jump 500 times and this has a lot to do with it. Has the person been pushing themselves to learn and get better or have they just jumped out of a plane a lot? Is it a passion for the person or is it a hobby? Do they work in the sport and some of their jumps are work jumps or are they rich and just pay for every jump? Has the person jumped at a lot of DZ's and from a lot of different planes, in all kinds of winds and weather? Experience to me is time learning and time at the DZ and around the sport you can get the same amount of time in a year as you can in 5. The person with three years in has the opportunity to know more but that is not always the case. Life gets in the way for some people. Something I find a little disturbing is the number of people talking about seeing vs not seeing people get hurt or killed. How does that matter? Do you need to have a friend killed by a drunk driver or make you a better driver? Iv seen a few people get banged up pretty bad and that does not make me any better or safer. Just makes me wish they were better or safer. You don't need to see somebody do a turn into the ground or see a student flare then let it go at 20 feet to know its a bad idea do you? If you do then you are just a dumb ass, end of story. "You mean pulling at 500 feet is a bad idea? Glad good old Jim did it so I know not to do it now." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #53 December 22, 2013 There is a difference in participating in skydiving as a sport -vs- a recreational activity. For one to skydive at the level where it is a sport their competency must be well developed. This takes dedication and experience. With that usually comes a certain level of ability to handle extremes. To participate as a recreational jumper the level of performance may be limited to merely saving oneself from the predicament of having jumped out of an airplane. Which type of jumper is being considered for your "currency" debate? jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #54 December 22, 2013 QuoteThe guy with 20 years in will know more about out dated things and maybe some random facts from the olden days but the guy with 4000 jumps will know way more about things that matter and will be a much better flyer. Knowledge is not gained simply by time but by learning. Somebody with 500 jumps in a year is pretty dedicated 500 in three, not so much. As a retired Marine you should know that when it comes to staying alive nothing is “out dated”. It doesn’t matter if you have 500 jumps in a year or 1000 jumps in 10 years. If you are not paying attention to the past you are not learning the things that will keep you alive in the future. You can become the best flyer the sport has ever seen but if you go in because in you rush to win the race you failed to learn some “random fact” you will still be dead. This was posted some years ago and I think it is still valid today. Sparky “Some of the best in the world, Dave Wilds, Tom Piras, Roger Nelson…. They were true Skygods, World Champions – Icons of the sport. They had natural talent, had developed incredible skills and were hugely current. ... And yet the ground offered them no concession for their level of skill or experience. Knowing that your experience and skill will probably never approach their level, try not to be so arrogant as to think for a moment you will be afforded any more consideration.” “The only source of knowledge is experience.” Albert EinsteinMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChuckMartin 0 #55 December 23, 2013 mjosparkyQuoteThe guy with 20 years in will know more about out dated things and maybe some random facts from the olden days but the guy with 4000 jumps will know way more about things that matter and will be a much better flyer. Knowledge is not gained simply by time but by learning. Somebody with 500 jumps in a year is pretty dedicated 500 in three, not so much. As a retired Marine you should know that when it comes to staying alive nothing is “out dated”. It doesn’t matter if you have 500 jumps in a year or 1000 jumps in 10 years. If you are not paying attention to the past you are not learning the things that will keep you alive in the future. You can become the best flyer the sport has ever seen but if you go in because in you rush to win the race you failed to learn some “random fact” you will still be dead. This was posted some years ago and I think it is still valid today. Sparky “Some of the best in the world, Dave Wilds, Tom Piras, Roger Nelson…. They were true Skygods, World Champions – Icons of the sport. They had natural talent, had developed incredible skills and were hugely current. ... And yet the ground offered them no concession for their level of skill or experience. Knowing that your experience and skill will probably never approach their level, try not to be so arrogant as to think for a moment you will be afforded any more consideration.” “The only source of knowledge is experience.” Albert Einstein True the only way we can learn is by knowing the bast but just because somebody has been around longer does not always mean they know more. Even jumps don't matter for some things. But all other things being equal I would listen more to the guy with 4000 jumps and 6 years over somebody with 500 in 20. Neither time in the sport or number of jumps guarantees you knowledge. I know master riggers that have less then 200 jumps but have been rigging longer then I have been alive does not mean I know more then them about gear but at the same time does not mean they know more then me about other parts of the sport. Just because somebody was there to see something does not mean they are the only ones that can learn from it. I don't need to jump a round from the 50's to know that ram air ones are more movable. We share and learn from each other and the people that came before us but at the same time that does not mean the people that have been around the longest know more, if that was true the best and most knowledgeable drivers on the road will be the people in the 80-90's. "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton The oldest scientist is not always the smartest ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #56 December 23, 2013 Subjective danger killed your three examples. Danger they could do little about. Somebody else took 'em out. One must be prepared for objective dangers. The ones you can prepare for and expect. The ones that knowledge, experience and wisdom can get you through. jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #57 December 23, 2013 jonstark Subjective danger killed your three examples. Danger they could do little about. Somebody else took 'em out. One must be prepared for objective dangers. The ones you can prepare for and expect. The ones that knowledge, experience and wisdom can get you through. jon .... and, we must always remember, that may not be enough! Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 558 #58 December 23, 2013 I think the argument is multifaceted. Time in sport is crucial for safety and objectivity and I am sorry but I see very little evidence that the 'young' generation has grasped the fundamentals of safety. On the flip side, it is an exceptional person who has >10 years in the sport and yet is still truly receptive to some of the technical developments that have occurred in the sport. They doggedly stick to the old tried and tested methods. I find it fascinating, we have got to the point where gear reliability is exceptional, the gear is also more complicated than ever before and yet peoples knowledge about gear, weather and aircraft is undoubtedly worse than ever before. There are plenty of jumpers with many hours in the tunnel, 1000's of jumps and yet they are lacking in the simplist of skills (hooking up an RSL, spotting, reading winds aloft, understanding the basics of turbulance etc). Yet largely due to the wind-tunnel the 'technical' aspects of human flight are understood and applied by even very new jumpers (for example this weekend I witnessed a jumper turn aboubt 10 points on his first ever 4 way - he has less than 30 jumps, but just got back from the tunnel)Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #59 December 23, 2013 Quotebut just because somebody has been around longer does not always mean they know more. No it doesn't ...not in every single case, but generally speaking it does. Your examples are on the far extremes in both cases...the scenario of 500 jumps in one year Vs. 500 jumps in three years is more along the lines of what the initial currency discussion was debating. There are as I mentioned earlier in the thread, too many variables involved to state any kind of definitive answer to the question...the goals and learning abilities of the individual obviously are important. Maybe a 'cleaner' comparison would be the person with 1000 jumps in one year Vs. 1000 jumps in 5 years. The 5 year jumper (imo) is involved enough to be current, and also has more time to have experienced a wider variety of things...as far as the sport - they are more mature. There are little 'nuggets' of important information laying around every drop zone...all other things being equal, the more TIME you have to sift through those nuggets, the more of 'em you will collect. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChuckMartin 0 #60 December 23, 2013 Lets look at this same idea but take skydiving out of it because we all have a lot of invested in it and opinions run deep. Man 1 Has been golfing for 5 years and has played 500 rounds of gold. He only goes out when he feels like it. Only plays on nice days when the weather is good. He almost always plays with the same people at the same golf course. He likes it but it is not a big part of his life. If he is not golfing he is not at the club and learns only what he feels like he wants to learn and has no ambition of teaching people or becoming a pro. He likes golfing but it is not his life and never wants it to be. He has other hobbies that keep him busy and he can go for weeks without playing. He shows up plays a game or two and leaves and he still uses the first set of clubs he got because they work just fine for him. Man 2 Same 500 games of golf but in one year. Plays whenever he can. Ran or shine, hot or cold. Travels around the country and has played at a lot of different courses. Has played in really high winds and on days when most other people (Man 1) would not play. When he is not at the course he is at a driving range. He reads everything he can on the sport he has all the books and magazines, gets online and reads even more. He teaches people how to play and sees what others are doing right and what they are doing wrong. When the weather is to bad to play he is still at the club talking to people and learning everything he can. He sits around all day in bad weather trying to get in half a game. He demos gear all the time to see what other clubs are like and to find what is best for him. Drives to other states to get around the weather or go to someplace because the club by were he lives in closed on some days. Man 3 Only 100 games in five years but has the passion of man 2. He has not played as many games but learns as much as he can. So who is better? Who knows more? Truth is, who knows? You would think man 2 is the best golfer and man 3 knows more right? But without knowing the people we have no way of knowing. It all comes down to the person maybe the third man learns a lot faster and is a better golfer then then the other two people with 5x as many games. Maybe the 2nd guy can not retain knowledge and no matter how much he reads and learn he wont remember as much as the 1st guy and though he does not set out to learn. I jump with students and I jump with people with 1000+ jumps and some students I have seen can fly better then the veteran guys. Some of them know more about gear then guys with 2 or 3 years. I have also seen guys with years in the sport and thousands of years that I feel are to unsafe. You cant compare people all the time. People have different goals from each other. As much as a lot of us don't want to admit it skydiving is not a big deal for a lot of people, even the ones that do it. We are saying that people with more time in should know more because they have more time to learn but most people don't want to learn. If you are on this forum you most likely care more then others or you wouldn't be here and want to think you know more then people that have been around the sport less time then you but that is because you care about it. If you have been around for 20 years and care and want to learn and make yourself better you will know more then some that has been around 5 years and cares the same but you will also know more then somebody that has been around for 30 and doesn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #61 December 23, 2013 Quote You cant compare people all the time. People have different goals from each other Yup...pretty much what I was saying. Too many variables to pin down a concrete answer...WHICH is more important - numbers or time? Depends on who you ask & their particular experience. Heard it said once though - all ya need is money to get 4-500 jumps in a year...takes a special passion to stay at it for 30 or 40 years! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #62 December 23, 2013 I just wanted to add I have meet more than a few jumpers that have fallen in love with this stuff. But I have to tell ya, years and differing dz's round you out. Many of these high first year jumpers have serious gaps in their knowledge. This is a concern. I do want to mention and add something here that is missing IMO and that is a lot of this in order to fully understand, are things you need to learn for yourself. There are generally lots of fine stuff coming from chuck martin and airtwardo, and DSE, and a zillion others, and they all love to do everything and anything they can to keep you current and safe. But until YOU actually get it, you don't. (rhetorical, YOU) Keep at it, stay current, learn, be humble,...all good stuff. I think skydiving is a skill that needs to be practiced. The less current you are the more concern I have. Some people listen and apply, some can't , some won't. Stay current. (Period) C I'm envious of any fun jumper that can crank out 500 in a year! Or over five years. Either way that's awesome! I'm kinda, in a very nice way referring to this: Quote "Even jumps don't matter for some things. But all other things being equal I would listen more to the guy with 4000 jumps and 6 years over somebody with 500 in 20. Neither time in the sport or number of jumps guarantees you knowledge. " It's not about who or what your hearing, or listen more from this guy or that guy, the source isn't important () it's what YOU learn!But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChuckMartin 0 #63 December 23, 2013 ChrisD I'm kinda, in a very nice way referring to this: Quote "Even jumps don't matter for some things. But all other things being equal I would listen more to the guy with 4000 jumps and 6 years over somebody with 500 in 20. Neither time in the sport or number of jumps guarantees you knowledge. " It's not about who or what your hearing, or listen more from this guy or that guy, the source isn't important () it's what YOU learn! True I agree with you. No matter what the source people can still be wrong. Every president we have had knows way more then you or I about economics and foreign policy but that does not mean that all of them are always right or that we should blindly listen to people even if they do know more then we do about a subject. In fact even experts always disagree with each other. You make a good point but kind of took what I said out of context. I was hinting at the fact that time doing something does always directly correlate to what most of us would call "experience". If that were true the oldest person in the world would be the smartest and no body would want a young pretty girl in bed they would all be going after the old wrinkled ones with some miles on them ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #64 December 23, 2013 Even I stand I awe of the reference you just made about the old wrinkled ones, Not touching that with a ten foot pole! C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #65 December 24, 2013 ChrisD It's not about who or what your hearing, or listen more from this guy or that guy, the source isn't important () it's what YOU learn! You're so wrong. the source is exceptionally important. Hang around a bonfire or in a bar after hours and you'll hear some fucking TERRIBLE advice being given - particularly to low time jumpers who don't know any better by other low time jumpers who think they know everything. What you learn could very well be bullshit if you don't know any better... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #66 December 24, 2013 yoink *** It's not about who or what your hearing, or listen more from this guy or that guy, the source isn't important () it's what YOU learn! You're so wrong. the source is exceptionally important. Hang around a bonfire or in a bar after hours and you'll hear some fucking TERRIBLE advice being given - particularly to low time jumpers who don't know any better by other low time jumpers who think they know everything. What you learn could very well be bullshit if you don't know any better... Quote What you learn could very well be bullshit if you don't know any better... This Dude,...I'm trying to raise the bar to support what you just said! That being "If you don't know any better!" I have lived thru the day when the most fucking knowledgeable people on the DZ were getting into fistfights about three rings killing people. (As just one example.) Once you leave the door your on your own, the most and greatest source isn't worth shit at that point! C We have all seen terrible advice, we all have a desire to protect and to do the best we can. Your passion to do this is very apparent and most welcome. But many need to learn what is effective, what works and what doesn't. Generally if your perceiving something, then ask, attacking doesn't work it only causes people to react. If you have that burning feeling that you want to strangle someone perhaps rephrasing your comments, or try expressing your self in terms of: "this makes me feel this way" or "I have a concern that this could happen," or "could you expand on what your meaning is," Or "you sound a little like your lecturing again and can you rephrase what you have said for this or that reason." It may sound like I'm speaking to you and lecturing yoink, but mostly I am lecturing to the masses and or being perceived differently because we all come from different backgrounds. Ask, before jumping to conclusions. Of course the source is important. But how do you know the message has been received? How can you tell what some one else takes away from any source? You can have the best source in the world, giving the best advice anyone could hope to receive. And ya know what? It don't matter a shit if the person didn't get the message! And how do ya know that they got the message, this is what is missing,....But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 139 #67 December 24, 2013 ChrisD ****** It's not about who or what your hearing, or listen more from this guy or that guy, the source isn't important () it's what YOU learn! You're so wrong. the source is exceptionally important. Hang around a bonfire or in a bar after hours and you'll hear some fucking TERRIBLE advice being given - particularly to low time jumpers who don't know any better by other low time jumpers who think they know everything. What you learn could very well be bullshit if you don't know any better... Quote What you learn could very well be bullshit if you don't know any better... This Dude,...I'm trying to raise the bar to support what you just said! That being "If you don't know any better!" I have lived thru the day when the most fucking knowledgeable people on the DZ were getting into fistfights about three rings killing people. (As just one example.) Once you leave the door your on your own, the most and greatest source isn't worth shit at that point! C We have all seen terrible advice, we all have a desire to protect and to do the best we can. Your passion to do this is very apparent and most welcome. But many need to learn what is effective, what works and what doesn't. Generally if your perceiving something, then ask, attacking doesn't work it only causes people to react. If you have that burning feeling that you want to strangle someone perhaps rephrasing your comments, or try expressing your self in terms of: "this makes me feel this way" or "I have a concern that this could happen," or "could you expand on what your meaning is," Or "you sound a little like your lecturing again and can you rephrase what you have said for this or that reason." It may sound like I'm speaking to you and lecturing yoink, but mostly I am lecturing to the masses and or being perceived differently because we all come from different backgrounds. Ask, before jumping to conclusions. Of course the source is important. But how do you know the message has been received? How can you tell what some one else takes away from any source? You can have the best source in the world, giving the best advice anyone could hope to receive. And ya know what? It don't matter a shit if the person didn't get the message! And how do ya know that they got the message, this is what is missing,.... Give it up, man. You've been outted as a phony. You're not a licensed skydiver, never were a licensed skydiver. You're just a wannabe troll. The mods should restrict you to the bonfire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #68 December 24, 2013 I think we have seen the last of Mr. Skydiver. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #69 December 24, 2013 mjosparky I think we have seen the last of Mr. Skydiver. Sparky Under that name anyway. But I hope you are right."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,514 #70 December 25, 2013 I think currency helps you to know how to do things right, while experience helps you to know how it can go wrong. In skydiving, both are important. An 11-year-old can be extremely smart and good at something, but has a limited frame of reference for risk assessment. Same thing for the 500-jumps-in-a-year guy. You want him to teach you techniques (as long as his or her techniques work for you). But once you want breadth, either because their techniques don't work for you, or for risk assessment, then you want the guy who's seen things go wrong, and knows more than one way. Both are important. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #71 December 25, 2013 fastphilI think the guy with 500 in one year most likely has greater interest in the sport and is actively learning more and faster and therefore the best skydiver. I made almost 500 my first year and to do it I jumped day and night at several DZs in several states at several boogies from many different DC-3s, several twin beech, otters and cessnas (might have been a heli too) and spent untold hours at the DZ waiting for weather to clear. I had a good feel for skydiving after the first year. So with your 10 years and 1500 jumps (according to your profile). Is the 500 in a year jumper better than you now? Does he know as much? Does he a greater interest in the sport?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,514 #72 December 25, 2013 Phil made his 500 in his first year around 1976, when it really did mean spending all of your time at the DZ, bad weather or good, because 5 jumps in a day (packing yourself, of course) was a good day. And the skills required to be a good skydiver when he was active weren't entirely the same, due to the changes in canopies and traffic. (hi Phil ) Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #73 December 26, 2013 And seriously, how have I been outted as a phony?? The message or the messenger? All you have done other than some poor attempt to advance your agenda, which for the life of me I don't understand, is again to reinforce for a really large number of people, who refuse to have anything to do with Dropzone.com, is that the people here are bigoted control freaks. If you don't see it there way, there's always the highway. WE have a click here and either your in or your out and if we don't like ya then you can get the heck out? And just exactly what does this have to with currency? O'h and if someone talks "down" to me, don't bother asking that person to clarify their tone or help them with their writing,... I guess it's if you don't like my view point then get the heck out??? And what has this to do with currency or the source of advice, well I'll tell ya.... which is a little strange because this feels like I'm speaking to about a hundred or more people that all have fake profiles, exaggerated jump numbers and experience and phony stories. Which is fine, IMO. I really get a kick out of the "demands" from those individuals that seem to have a problem accepting someone else's viewpoints. The story goes something like this: "I want to know your history and qualifications." Now here is a gentle reminder that the answer could go something like this: 1. I am an experienced skydiver. 2. I am a student. 3. I put the P in parachute, been doing this for 45 years and own my own skydiving company. But I enjoy the anonymity that the creator of this site promised so that I or anyone can discuss controversial topics without repercussions, etc,.... Keeping in mind there are a couple thousand fake profiles HOW CAN ANYTHING ANYONE SAYS HERE BE REASURING TO ANYONE ELSE??? Ok, lets take this a little further so you fully understand this: Question: Are you a licensed skydiver? Answere: Yes. Have you proven anything? What is the point? Why do you ask? Did yo even bother to ask for some clarification of the content of anything even remotely relevant to the OP's original question? Why do I mention this here about currency? Because this thread is more than a little nebulous, the OP has raised a question concerning more about how other s perceive others than anyone's individual currency. If you want to do something to help with currency then you need the feedback from the individual but as long as some are more interested in their voice at the expense of listening, you will never hear what they have to say. Basically I hope I get the jist of the OP's point, help me out if you can, but I see this thread as about how to judge others??? And nothing to do with my or anyone else's idea of what it means to be current? CBut what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #74 December 26, 2013 QuoteI really get a kick out of the "demands" from those individuals that seem to have a problem accepting someone else's viewpoints. The story goes something like this: When you present your opinion, you should be ready to back up your qualifications to validate that opinion - This is not a difficult concept and anyone should not feel offended that they were asked to back up their opinion."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #75 December 26, 2013 RonQuoteI really get a kick out of the "demands" from those individuals that seem to have a problem accepting someone else's viewpoints. The story goes something like this: When you present your opinion, you should be ready to back up your qualifications to validate that opinion - This is not a difficult concept and anyone should not feel offended that they were asked to back up their opinion. Ron: you've been explained his qualifications. Before him, we were arachuting.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites