Currency debate

[ChrisD 0]

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When you present your opinion, you should be ready to back up your qualifications to validate that opinion - This is not a difficult concept and anyone should not feel offended that they were asked to back up their opinion.

Then you won't be offended when I ask: if you can explain why this point is so important to you?

How are opinion and qualifications related?

The message or the messenger?

Whilst I think I'm starting to get where you are coming from, not everything in the world needs to be referenced to a rule or a regulation or a quote from Wikipedia.

Some of my take on this view would be something like if some small child came up to me and said that they saw something and they have this opinion as to how the world works. I can listen to what this child has to say. Or perhaps I can also say: "You are a small child, without a degree or any experience, so what you have to say isn't worth listening too."

I guess I'm trying to point out how some people want others to back up their opinion. Some will listen and some want proof, but I'm not so sure everyone is on the same page here? Yo have basically made a statement that you want anyone to accept as fact because they can always back up what they have to say because they have qualifications? I don't know, nor do I care about your qualifications,
And I am not referencing anyone here, but I have been totally fucked in the past by some so called very highly qualified individuals with lots of qualifications. Taken to a extreme, just so that I can be a pain in your ass, part of what some are asking for and their reasons remind me of tyranny. If we all were just limited too backing up our opinion and keep our mouths shut otherwise then perhaps we can all step back to the days when certain people were NOT taught to read, cause they get's uppity?

C

Or just as an option anyone can take this here: The Bonefire.

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ufk22 33]

"You are a small child, without a degree or any experience, so what you have to say isn't worth listening to."

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[Ron 10]

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Then you won't be offended when I ask: if you can explain why this point is so important to you?

Of course not.

But which question... The currency question, or the hiding and trying to act like an expert question?

The currency question is actually pretty simple. I have seen people who lack experience only available through time in sport make mistakes that they would of known better if they had more time in the sport.

As for me being bothered by people who hide behind anonymity yet give what they consider to be 'expert' opinions... This is even easier. There is zero reason to give an opinion and not give your credentials if asked. People often lack the credentials yet think they should be considered an expert so they hide their credentials.

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How are opinion and qualifications related?

Everyone can have an opinion, but only people with qualifications to back the opinion up should be paid attention to. A whuffo can claim that three parachutes makes us safer, Bill Booth might have the opposite opinion. Based on the EXPERIENCE between the two, I'd listen to Booth over some Whuffo.

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Whilst I think I'm starting to get where you are coming from, not everything in the world needs to be referenced to a rule or a regulation or a quote from Wikipedia.

This has nothing to do with a regulation or a wikipedia article (Which BTW, I would not accept a wiki article as factual anyway). It has to do to see if the person offering his opinion is someone that should be ignored, or listened to... Again a whuffo's opinion on equipment vs Booths for example. Another example might be a guy that watched Dropzone 14 times vs a TI that actually has 14k tandem jumps.

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I guess I'm trying to point out how some people want others to back up their opinion. Some will listen and some want proof, but I'm not so sure everyone is on the same page here? Yo have basically made a statement that you want anyone to accept as fact because they can always back up what they have to say because they have qualifications?

Nope, but a persons experience should be a factor in if you listen to them or not. A person with nothing to hide - Will not hide.

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Notice that I'm not speaking to you from the front seat of a S2A, in which case I hope yo are ready to take over the controls as soon as we touch down. But on an open forum where no one can really be sure of much, I think then the message doesn't need a citation with every comment. Kind of limits speech don't you think?

Lets use that example... Should you take advice from me about landing a Pitts, or from Budd Davisson? Me, I'd be a terrible choice to teach you to land a Pitts, most likely kill us both. I'd listen to Budd Davisson - He has the credentials to back it up (39 years of instruction and 5K hours teaching in the Pitts line). And you can bet your ass that Davisson is not going to hide his identity if asked. Bill Finagin will not be afraid to give you his credentials if you ask either.

So if I was acting like a Pitts expert (which I have not) and you asked me, "How many hours in a Pitts do you have?" And I answered: "That does not matter!!!! Only my opinion matters!" You would have every right to think I was hiding something.

But if you asked Bill, Budd, and myself how to best launch block 6 in 4way.... I'd listen to me and not them. I'd bet they would be smart enough to not give a suggestion (just like I am smart enough not to try and teach someone to land a Pitts).

Qualifications matter.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[yoink 321]

ChrisD

How are opinion and qualifications related?

Because opinions in skydiving often result in action. And action can lead to people getting killed. This isn't a philosophical debate.

As an inexperienced skydiver you might not understand that the opinions you're offering may not be suitable for other low time jumpers. You simply can't learn everything from reading - that's how it related to this thread.

So (with the best intentions) you may post faulty opinion on a subject based on your limited understanding and experience, which can be misconstrued as fact by other beginners - your posting style deliberately tries to imitate or reflect more experience than you seem to have and so the danger is that someone listens to your opinion, acts on it, and then dies.

THAT's the problem people are having with you.

If you don't like it, there's a simple solution - post your real name, dz and jump numbers - stuff that's easily verifiable. Most people here are big enough to apologize if they're wrong.


But at the moment the consensus seems to be that you don't know enough to be posting the way you are.
Your personality is trying to pose as an expert when you don't have the experience or qualifications to suggest otherwise.


The irony of this coming up in this particular thread amuses me, by the way.
Is book smart with 5 jumps the same as the guy who has 500 jumps in a year, or 500 jumps in
5 years?

The other thing I find really interesting is that I've been reading these forums for over a decade now, and can count on one hand the number of times I've seen people actually asking a poster to verify their qualifications....
Sure there are 'fill in your profile' answers, but for people to actually call someone out and directly ask for a posters experience is extremely rare...

Maybe you might want to learn from that.

[ChrisD 0]

Thank you for your well thought out reply.

I'm going to pull out some thoughts to illustrate what I'm trying to point out: ( on the "Hiding" subject.)

"I'd listen to Booth over some Whuffo."

"but a persons experience should be a factor in if you listen to them or not"

"Everyone can have an opinion, but only people with qualifications to back the opinion up should be paid attention to."

I get where your coming from, it's not the same as what is taking place here, and if you bear with me I hope you can see some of this.

In each of your quotes above, You, Ron are making the choice. You said this: "...I'd Listen..." You in the first person, with your accumulated knowledge have made a choice. What happens when you leave out the words: Booth and Whuffo? Substitute x and y in your example, you don't have a clue who is who, now how do you make your choice?

And yes a persons "experience" should be a factor, but who is doing the listening? You are! You are making the choice whether "if you listen to them or not" in this example you need a certain amount of knowledge to make your example work. Otherwise if you don't have the prior knowledge you can't tell what is good advice from bad advice. Or who is who, take away the prior knowledge and your right back to having to decide for yourself. And how do you decide?


And the third: "Everyone can have an opinion, but only people with qualifications to back the opinion up should be paid attention to." Ron,... who decides who is and isn't qualified? You have given examples of some well known individuals and I understand your reasoning, and I am with ya, but your the one deciding who you listen to and who you don't listen to.

Ron, try to take out all of the references and put yourself in the shoes of someone who hasn't a clue and then how do you make your decisions from their perspective? They are the ones that matter. Do you stop and ask them here on this forum if they are getting your message?

This is a shift in thinking. It is hard and requires effort to actually understand if someone else gets it. It is easy to just sit back and make funny comments about things we don't understand. I want you to take special notice of the number of times other people make a comment about how someone else appears to be an "expert" and then their conduct is one of belittlement and ridicule. No one has undertaken the time to ask for clarifications nor made any statements about things like your stance is a little too arrogant too me and you appear to be an expert, but I don't understand the points your trying to make? Just what does it mean to act like an expert? What does it mean to be a know it all? If someone appears to be an arrogant prick and you don't like their tone, well help them along, tell them, cause the answer back might be something like "your the one with the problem?" Is how we perceive others the issue?

Dropzone.com works because if someone is in a hurry, or has a lapse of memory, or doesn't give a complete answer another expert can jump in and help out! It falls apart when so many turn it into their private club and pick favorites at the expense of others. I count on this, I think you do as welll, as most do.

No one is hiding here, but there are plenty of individuals that are not taking the time to fully explain themselves nor is anyone taking the time to present their point of view by presenting both sides of their arguments. Everyone here is an expert! No one is taking the time or making the effort to fully explain themselves. And understandably many are chastised for the amount of effort they do extend. I have seen hundreds of posts judged solely by the length and word count, exceed some certain value and it has become sport to make fun of those that do in fact take the time to give a thorough explanation. It is as if you are required to "tweet" if you have something to say and it exceeds 2 sentences, then screw you! This is the message I'm getting here and from many outsiders that want nothing to do with Dropzone.com

I'll try to simplify all of this a little: In an environment where you can't tell who is qualified, what do you do?

You listen to the message, and hope others either contribute to the message, expand upon it, help the person out, or make the corrections and at best explain so that every one can understand what is on the table.

C

I think if someone gives an "expert" opinion, perhaps everyone might get a more satisfying response if they concentrate on whatever topic is under discussion, and making points by clearing up any confusion or clarifying difficult concepts.

You all have an opportunity to help others, in fact you have an unprecedented opportunity if you take the time.

The message or the messenger?

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ChrisD 0]

Thanks for the heads up Will.


I hadn't noticed.

This: "your posting style"

"But at the moment the consensus seems to be that you don't know enough to be posting the way you are."

So, again, If I have said something, anywhere here about something technical or some improper behavior, then please take the time to correct me. In the thread where I have done this, where it would be more relevant and so no one would have to jump around. So that everyone can fully understand all of the issues and complexities of giving advice on a public forum where my intentional agenda is to get people to think for themselves.

Other than that I thank you for illustrating something that I have been trying to do for quite some time. You are one brave dude man! For taking the time to point out how tone and attitude can interfere with a message. You are also the first to attempt to say something like, and excuse me a bit if I put some words into your mouth, Can yo please try this or that when speaking to others so that people don't react to you as much as the content of what you have to say.

The other points you have mentioned have been coved ad nausea-atium elsewhere.

I try very hard to point out the audience when I get on my high horse. I always use different examples or make it clear when speaking with newbies as compared with chastising swoop'rs with mad skillz, does everyone do this? That's rhetorical, cause we all know this is a common concern that frequently gets lost in the shuffle....

As far as being called out, ya I'm surprised it has taken this long as well, being a dick to illustrate this point at my expense is a lot of work.

And for the time being I'm going to go back to my old standby and ask WHY?

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[Divalent 139]

ChrisD

The message or the messenger?

In your case, both. You are a bullshitter pretenting to be an expert. You lie, and you do so deliberately with the intent to deceive people. And most of the crap you spew is just that: crap.

And you are not anonymous: you have posted your real name here and your profile has a real email. What license do you have and what is the number on your license?

[ChrisD 0]

WHY?

C

Who or what gives you the right to demand anything? I'm detecting a little tone? Forgive me if I'm wrong?

But why is that so important to you?

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[nigel99 558]

Divalent

***The message or the messenger?

In your case, both. You are a bullshitter pretenting to be an expert. You lie, and you do so deliberately with the intent to deceive people. And most of the crap you spew is just that: crap.

And you are not anonymous: you have posted your real name here and your profile has a real email. What license do you have and what is the number on your license?

I don't think this is a fight worth having. Chris's posts are often hard to follow, I think he's been around the sport for a long time, but for whatever reason (trolling, posting while under the influence whatever) some posts are pretty freakish...

As to message or messenger, "don't learn to skydive on.the internet" seems applicable.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[ufk22 33]

He has 1 tandem.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4575876;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[ChrisD 0]

ufk22

He has 1 tandem.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4575876;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

So what is your point?

Are you speaking about currency, I recognize the drop zone as Pepperell, they are open every day of the week, their tandem instructors are some of the most experienced in the business as well as some of the longest in the sport.

C

And a note to the mods, please leave ufk22's post here, If I have any say in the matter that is,....

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[Ron 10]

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In each of your quotes above, You, Ron are making the choice. You said this: "...I'd Listen..." You in the first person, with your accumulated knowledge have made a choice. What happens when you leave out the words: Booth and Whuffo? Substitute x and y in your example, you don't have a clue who is who, now how do you make your choice?

Simply put, if you have the credentials to back up your words you would not be afraid of showing them.

*I* am not worried about you giving *me* bad advice. I know enough about skydiving to know if your opinion is valid or not. This is not about me, this is about the low timer that does not have the bullshit filter that I have learned from 20 years and 6k jumps.

Again... If you have the credentials you should not be afraid to show them. You can hem and haw about it all day long, but that is a basic fact.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nigel99 558]

ufk22

He has 1 tandem.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4575876;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Ok that thread explains alot of the animosity. As was pointed out in the thread skydiving is a small world and for most people with 200+ jumps you have others that can vouch that you are real.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[wmw999 2,514]

The point is that you can sound really good on nearly any topic if you qualify your statements enough. Because then you can say that "it's in there," leaving it up to the reader to fish through all the crap and figure out what was worth paying attention to.

Having some actual experience means that you can understand the question, and convey the necessary information, in fewer words -- which means they might actually be read.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 10]

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So what is your point?

His point is that by reading your comments we all thought something was wrong. When we asked you about it, you tried to hide your lack of experience and that was a second red flag.

Now we find out what we all pretty much suspected... That you are not as experienced as you tried to fool others into thinking.

Having few jumps (which you may not actually have) is not an issue. Having few jumps and acting like an expert giving out advice is an issue.

But I will ask, is this a pretty accurate description of your experience level?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4575876;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

1. You signed up years ago to learn, but never finished the program.

2. You did a tandem in 2012.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynvuaydTebI

3. You signed up here on September 2, 2012 and posted
"I'm glad for this thread...I'm a newbi renting gear"

So I ask.... Is this accurate?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ufk22 33]

ChrisD

***He has 1 tandem.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4575876;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

And a note to the mods, please leave ufk22's post here, If I have any say in the matter that is,....a link to chrisd's only skydive...
[/url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynvuaydTebI

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[ufk22 33]

Ron

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I really get a kick out of the "demands" from those individuals that seem to have a problem accepting someone else's viewpoints. The story goes something like this:

When you present your opinion, you should be ready to back up your qualifications to validate that opinion - This is not a difficult concept and anyone should not feel offended that they were asked to back up their opinion.

He has done 1 tandem and is willing to lie about his total lack of experience. What more qualifications does he need?
See chrisd's entire skydiving career here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynvuaydTebI

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[mark 107]

Ron

Having few jumps (which you may not actually have) is not an issue. Having few jumps and acting like an expert giving out advice is an issue.

For example, ChrisD offered some astonishing suggestions about closing loops and washers in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4517569

Mark

[Ron 10]

mark

***Having few jumps (which you may not actually have) is not an issue. Having few jumps and acting like an expert giving out advice is an issue.

For example, ChrisD offered some astonishing suggestions about closing loops and washers in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4517569

Mark

What peaked my interest was ChrisD's expert opinion on this thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4572580#4572580

Notice he gives an 'expert' opinion on what a student should be required to do.

So authoritative:
"Lets get one thing clear, at a minimum he starts with a Cat A jump"

So 'knowledgeable' on the rules:
"It is been over a year and he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point"

And so forceful:
"This isn't really debatable"

Never mind that his authoritative, knowledgable, and forceful comments are 100% wrong.

If it is found that ChrisD was a student tandem in 2012..... Well, I will not be surprised.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airtwardo 7]

I've read through the whole thread and the nagging question in my mind is WHY?

What would motivate someone to continually talk the talk, without having ever having walked the walk!?

In an arena where death & injury are very real possibilities - I just don't understand someone holding themselves up as an expert when the credentials are no where near that...it amazes me and not in a good way.




Yes Chris...this sport DOES have cliques - it has since I started, and whining about it usually means one is not 'in' the clique they want to be...well, earn it.

If the experts weren't in a class of their own, everybody would get a Superbowl ring...sorry, doesn't work that way - ya gotta put in the work first.

There are a select group of people on here I consider the 'go-to' experts when I have a question that needs clarification...Ron, Dave, Mark, DSE, Bill, Sparky are a few that come to mind - there are a handful of others...

I know their qualifications and experience... But I've been doing this almost 4 decades, I can separate the chickenshit from the bubblegum ~ a n00b probably isn't so well attuned and may take bad advice from a so called expert not knowing any better...that's what amazes me, why someone who seems relatively intelligent wouldn't understand the consequences.

PLEASE - Don't do that.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ChrisD 0]

Jim, I do appreciate your efforts, I really do.

But what your proposing is having forum where only the 6 people you have mentioned speak? You are free to start your own site, the six of you if you feel that is important enough to you???

Again, if ever anyone says something wrong or needs improvement this is the benefit, if the people take the time, to correct others.

I guess it's all about how you do this?

If you want to go thru a pile of posts and find something I have said incorrectly, you are free to do that and I welcome any corrections that you may find. But I too go to the experts to clarify and as a source of information. Including you!

I think many should understand the consequences, and their are many here should heed that advice as well.

Thank you for your time and effort, now ask me if I have gotten the message and how will you know? C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ChuckMartin 0]

Country-Zimbabwe
City- Salem
Home DZ- Deland
Location map- SoCal
You say your from New England and wont tell anybody anything about yourself. People keep attacking what you are saying because most the time it doesn't make sense.

Would it not just be easier for you to fill out your profile and let people know what your level really is? Unless you really are here just to piss people off and then you're doing what you set out to do. Stop trying to get into a logical debate with people asking them what you have said that is wrong (even though people have pointed that out to you a few times). Even if its not for this post let people know what your experience level is so when you do say something to a student on here asking a question they can decide if they want to listen to you at all. Stop typing 3000 words trying to get around a incredibly easy answer.

[yoink 321]

ChrisD

Thank you for your time and effort, now ask me if I have gotten the message and how will you know? C

Have you gotten the message? What do you think the message is, Chris?


How will we know if you've got it? That's easy...
Everyone will know because you'll truthfully post your experience and home dz here, and you'll stop pretending to be an expert on everything - listen more, talk less.


I'm with 'Twardo - WHY are you pushing this so hard, Chris?

[mjosparky 4]

Not sure how you conduct yourself in the real world but your behavior on the net sucks.
Two things have been established: you tell lies on a regular basis and you try and pass your opinions off as fact.

When you get called out on this you dance around and refuse to face the issue. You respond with a full page of crap that might make you feel like a big man but in reality just makes you look foolish. You’re not an experienced skydiver have never been a skydiver and will never be a skydiver.

Like Jim said, why? You spend a great deal of time posting your drivel and what do you get out it? Your life must be pretty bad if you need this to feel good about yourself.

You guys do whatever you want but I am done with him.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ron 10]

Chris Donovan has a "B" license from the USPA. He earned it while in the NorthEastern region.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334