Tandem Injury at a Demo Jump

[tball 0]

So there was a demo jump at a golf course in Festus, Missouri on Saturday the 8th. Cool. There was a tandem as part of the demo. Not cool. (Isn't that illegal USPA?). The tandem canopy clipped a tree on landing and the tandem passenger was injured as a result (broken leg). Not cool. Should this be reported to USPA? If a USPA Regional Director was flying the plane at the demo.....who should report it to USPA? Why would a Regional Director OK an activity that is in dorect violation of USPA rules?

[JohnMitchell 16]

I think there are waivers available for tandem demos, but I'm not sure. And whether or not that was done in this case, I really don't know. Very bad press to break someone's leg in a high profile setting like that. I've done a fair amount of tandems, but I have no desire to do tandem demos.

[wildcard451 0]

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So there was a demo jump at a golf course in Festus, Missouri on Saturday the 8th. Cool. There was a tandem as part of the demo. Not cool. (Isn't that illegal USPA?). The tandem canopy clipped a tree on landing and the tandem passenger was injured as a result (broken leg). Not cool. Should this be reported to USPA? If a USPA Regional Director was flying the plane at the demo.....who should report it to USPA? Why would a Regional Director OK an activity that is in dorect violation of USPA rules?

Start naming names or quit whining anonymously online.

[NWFlyer 2]

Illegal? Only if you're confusing USPA BSRs with something that has the force of law.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[skydived19006 4]

You should study the BSRs before you go point fingers and accusing folks of something of which you don't really know. There is no BSR rule against doing a tandem as a demonstration, I've done it, and did the research before hand. What there is are minimum landing area requirements (which some regular DZs don't meet). It has to be an "open field" to take a tandem in. Insurance Technologies will not insure a demonstration with a tandem, unless maybe both under the canopy are TIs and maybe PRO rated, but I didn't research this specifically.

What exactly constitutes an "open field" is a bit of a grey area in my opinion. Is an area "open" if there's a tree in the middle of it? Is a landing area an "open field" if you have to count the entire fairway to get the square footage?

So, point out the specific BSR you think was broken and I'll be more than happy to discuss farther.

BTW, within the SIM there are BSRs and "everything else". The BSRs are the only "rules", everything else is a "suggestion." You can't "break" a suggestion.

If you're wondering, I do not have any involvement in this particular jump.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[tball 0]

BSR Sec 2 J 3 - - -"Demonstration jumps into Level 2 areas require a D license with a USPA PRO Rating for all jumpers, including both tandem jump participants." Sorry. The passenger wasnt a D.

[JumpHog 0]

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BSR Sec 2 J 3 - - -"Demonstration jumps into Level 2 areas require a D license with a USPA PRO Rating for all jumpers, including both tandem jump participants." Sorry. The passenger wasnt a D.

First, you're probably not going to get a lot of credence on here coming on and posting anonymously. Second, I highly doubt this golf course was a Level 2 landing area, which are the smallest and most crowded of the FAA's list of landing areas. A jump into a Level 2 landing area also requires approval from the FAA by filing an FAA Form 7711-2. Unless they were jumping into the 9th green at the Masters, surrounded by 50,000 spectators, this isn't going to apply.

Nonetheless, it is always unfortunate to hear when a tandem is injured. I wish them a speedy recovery!

[stratostar 5]

Go read section 2 of the Sims on setting up a dropzone and the required landing area size. Also read AC 105.2d sport parachuting as to requirements for landing a parachute off an airport property.

1. A license 100 meters to the nearest hazard

50 meters to the nearest hazard for B license & tandems

12 meters for D license to the nearest hazard

2. The property owners permission, that is it's and a NOTAM under some cases. No 7711 needed or a COA nor demo insurance.

In fact I can set up a dropzone just about any place I like as long as I follow the FAA rules & USPA BSR's and landing on a golf course might be one of those places that meets the rules & BSR's.... FYI

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[michaelmullins 81]

Quote

So there was a demo jump at a golf course in Festus, Missouri on Saturday the 8th. Cool. There was a tandem as part of the demo. Not cool. (Isn't that illegal USPA?). The tandem canopy clipped a tree on landing and the tandem passenger was injured as a result (broken leg). Not cool. Should this be reported to USPA? If a USPA Regional Director was flying the plane at the demo.....who should report it to USPA? Why would a Regional Director OK an activity that is in dorect violation of USPA rules?

FYI:
From the BSRs

Extraordinary skydives

1. Night, water, and demonstration jumps are to be performed only with the advice of the local USPA S&TA, Instructor Examiner, or Regional Director. [NW]

3. Demonstration jumps into Level 2 areas require a D license with a USPA PRO Rating for all jumpers, including both tandem jump participants.[E]

5. Tandem jumps into stadiums are prohibited.[E]

Above conditions appear to have been met.

From the SIM, Exhibition Jumps:

1. Open Field and Level 1, as defined by USPA and accepted by the FAA (all of the following):

a. USPA C license or higher

b. minimum 200 jumps

c. 50 jumps within the past 12 months

d. five jumps within the previous 60 days using the same model and size canopy to be used on the demonstration jump

e. for tandem jumps, the above requirements do not apply to the tandem student

Table 7.A-Size and Definition of Landing Areas
Open Field
1. A minimum-sized area that will accommodate a landing area no less than 500,000 square feet
2. Allows a jumper to drift over the spectators with sufficient altitude (250 feet) so as not to create a hazard to persons or property on the ground
3. Will accommodate landing no closer than 100 feet from the spectators
Level 1
1. An area that will accommodate a landing area no smaller than at least 250,000 square feet up to 500,000 square feet
2. Or an area with the sum total that equals 250,000 square feet, up to 500,000 square feet) with a one-sided linear crowd line
3. Allows jumpers to drift over the spectators with sufficient altitude (250 feet) so as not to create a hazard to persons or property on the ground
4. Will accommodate landing no closer than 50 feet from the spectators
5. Many Open-Field athletic areas constitute a Level 1 area.

If you will read the above you will see that it is perfectly legal to take a Tandem Student into an Open Field or Level 1 area. For instance, an Open Field (500,000 sq ft) could be an area that is 500 ft wide and 1000 ft long. A Level 1 (250,000 sq ft) could be an area 250 ft wide by 1000 ft long. So, I would certainly think that a golf course could contain one or the other of these areas.

It is unfortunate that the Tandem Student was injured but, after all, this is skydiving, not golf.

Mike Mullins
USPA National Director
Member, Safety & Training Committee

[tball 0]

Thanks for the clarification. So open field and Level 1 areas CAN have trees in them. I was unaware. My apologies.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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Also read AC 105.2d sport parachuting as to requirements for landing a parachute off an airport property.

Once again, we find RECCOMENDATIONS... not requirements:

AC 105-2D §5.f

f. Parachute Landing Areas. The FAA recommends that areas used as parachute landing areas remain unobstructed, with sufficient minimum radial distances to the nearest hazard. The USPA has defined such distances and hazards in their BSRs.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[skydived19006 4]

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Thanks for the clarification. So open field and Level 1 areas CAN have trees in them. I was unaware. My apologies.

I can't quite read if that's a satirical comment or not. I indicated that it's not specifically pointed out in the SIM if my 500,000 sf, or 250,000 sf can be a bit larger, but have a 200 sf area in the middle with a tree. Or, for instance a fairway that's a total of say 500,000 sf but not a regular shape at all still constitute an Open Field. I say "yes", you may have another opinion.

(satire)
As opposed to agreeing to disagree, I'd prefer we agree that I'm always right. (/satire)

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[stratostar 5]

Quote

Once again, we find RECCOMENDATIONS... not requirements:

AC 105-2D §5.f

f. Parachute Landing Areas. The FAA recommends that areas used as parachute landing areas remain unobstructed, with sufficient minimum radial distances to the nearest hazard. The USPA has defined such distances and hazards in their BSRs.

Yepper's

Quote

H. Drop zone requirements

1. Areas used for skydiving should be unobstructed, with the following minimum radial distances to the nearest hazard:

a. solo students and A-license holders—100 meters

b. B- and C-license holders—50 meters

c. D-license holders—unlimited

2. Hazards are defined as telephone and power lines, towers, buildings, open bodies of water, highways, automobiles, and clusters of trees covering more than 3,000 square meters. [NW]

3. Manned ground-to-air communications (e.g., radios, panels, smoke, lights) are to be present on the drop zone during skydiving operations.[NW]

A few lone trees are not a hazard, nor is a parked airplane or golf cart - FYI

For the record the sims online is not updated and current, the last BOD meet the D license was change to 12 meters and the 50 meters for tandems rules was made.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[michaelmullins 81]

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Thanks for the clarification. So open field and Level 1 areas CAN have trees in them. I was unaware. My apologies.

Don Zarda:

I was simply stating all the pertinent rules. I have not looked at the area. It is entirely possible the area met the rules or not. However, your original post was that this complete jump was wrong because it was a "Tandem Demo", etc etc.

[rrr 0]

THE FACTS ABOUT THIS JUMP.
Did any of you actually witness or see video of this jump?
If no is your answer then how can you comment intelligently on hear say info.
This was not a demo jump.
Nobody was paid.
The passenger DID NOT PAY for this jump.
there were no spectators.
Private event, open only to the very few people that jumped in and then played golf.
Notam was filed.
Gary Peek did not fly the plane.
The canopy DID NOT come in contact with a tree.
It is an open field.
Yes there are trees between the fairways.
The student did put his feet down on landing opposite of instructions during landing.
The student is my brother.

Before commenting on this event any further one might want to question the personal or political motivations of the individual who started this post and where he got his info.

[michaelmullins 81]

Quote

THE FACTS ABOUT THIS JUMP.
Did any of you actually witness or see video of this jump?
If no is your answer then how can you comment intelligently on hear say info.
This was not a demo jump.
Nobody was paid.
The passenger DID NOT PAY for this jump.
there were no spectators.
Private event, open only to the very few people that jumped in and then played golf.
Notam was filed.

The canopy DID NOT come in contact with a tree.
It is an open field.
Yes there are trees between the fairways.
The student did put his feet down on landing opposite of instructions during landing.
The student is my brother.

Before commenting on this event any further one might want to question the personal or political motivations of the individual who started this post and where he got his info.

Since you replied to me I want it to be perfectly clear that I was not the one accusing anyone of wrongdoing, I was pointing out to the one originally pointing the finger that this jump could have been made completely legal under all standards (USPA & FAA).
Mike Mullins

[rrr 0]

I don't know this blog thing works. My comments are not directed towards you but to the person who started this nonsense. I appreicate the fact that you would have an objective view on this matter, and were willing to educate them on the rules. If you know how to get this in front of the origional sender by allmeans do so. thx

[vpjr 18]

Poor guy, Every Christmas it will be the same story about how you broke your brothers leg. Hope he heals fast.

[michaelmullins 81]

Quote

I don't know this blog thing works. My comments are not directed towards you but to the person who started this nonsense. I appreicate the fact that you would have an objective view on this matter, and were willing to educate them on the rules. If you know how to get this in front of the origional sender by allmeans do so. thx

Just go to the top of the thread and reply to him.
Mike

[nursecook 0]

Quote

THE FACTS ABOUT THIS JUMP.
Did any of you actually witness or see video of this jump?
If no is your answer then how can you comment intelligently on hear say info.
This was not a demo jump.
Nobody was paid.
The passenger DID NOT PAY for this jump.
there were no spectators.
Private event, open only to the very few people that jumped in and then played golf.
Notam was filed.
Gary Peek did not fly the plane.
The canopy DID NOT come in contact with a tree.
It is an open field.
Yes there are trees between the fairways.
The student did put his feet down on landing opposite of instructions during landing.
The student is my brother.

Before commenting on this event any further one might want to question the personal or political motivations of the individual who started this post and where he got his info.

I would like to thank everyone for your very insiteful replies. This is a great tool to educated fellow skydivers on BSR's and FAR's.

RRR, did your parents spank you for play so ruff with your brother? :) We look forward to you jumping into this event again next year. Your brother's leg will be healed by then, except he may want me to take him on the tandem... tee hee

[gunpaq 1]

Tandem demos are legal and into stadiums as well.

The tandem demo is something that takes exceptional skill and discipline to execute safely and is not for everyone with a tandem and PRO rating.

Through the efforts of DZO John Wallace working with the USPA, the FAA with the assistance of late Senator Arlen Spector, and the Relative Workshop, a waiver was obtained by the GERONIMO! Skydiving Team from Elkton, MD to perform a tandem exhibition jump into Veterans Stadium at night with the Eagles football team mascot "Swoop" for his debut. The jump was executed on the night of August 21, 1996.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[airtwardo 7]

gunpaq

Tandem demos are legal and into stadiums as well.

The tandem demo is something that takes exceptional skill and discipline to execute safely and is not for everyone with a tandem and PRO rating.

Through the efforts of DZO John Wallace working with the USPA, the FAA with the assistance of late Senator Arlen Spector, and the Relative Workshop, a waiver was obtained by the GERONIMO! Skydiving Team from Elkton, MD to perform a tandem exhibition jump into Veterans Stadium at night with the Eagles football team mascot "Swoop" for his debut. The jump was executed on the night of August 21, 1996.

These days, down in these parts anyway-

Both the pilot & passenger have to have a PRO rating IIRC...and failure to do that voids the demo insurance, among other things.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[normiss 798]

Damn, I missed that.

Impressive the way we're kept informed of changes and critical info isn't it?

[diablopilot 2]

IIRC that was the thinking for a while, but then it was brought to the attention of the USPA that the FAA's guidance for FSDO's document stated that tandems would not be approved for level 2 and stadium demos.

This was after the FAA HQ saw the Shannon Sharpe demo into Mile High stadium (which they complemented on the professional and safe execution of) and mentioned that by the FAA's own rules, the FSDO should not have approved it.

At that point the BOD changed the BSR's back to reflect this policy until such time the FAA's documents (whos policies on this subject had orginaly been copied from the USPA's BSR's) had changed.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.