obelixtim 150 #351 April 4, 2012 QuoteIn my experience, demonizing a group rarely has the result of them listening to you. No different than walking up to someone and yelling at them on the dz, even if you're right. More often than not you cause them to be defensive, and immediately shut down any chance of a civil conversation at that time. "Demonising" wasn't my term initially, because I don't actually think anyone is "demonising" swooping and HP canopies, the reality is that genie is out of the bottle. "Demonising" seems to me to be a defensive reaction by those who don't want to accept that others can be concerned about what is happening, and have something to say about that. I agree with what you say, about people tending to close their ears if they are harassed. And thats been going on for 20 odd years already and still continues. However, a concerted chorus from a multitude of directions tends to make people realise that there is an issue that really needs to be addressed. Sometimes that has to be long and loud, and sometimes extreme, in order to generate even a small shift in attitudes. Banning things isn't necessary. A change in the mindset is. And a "civil conversation" is sometimes not necessary to be effective. Sometimes they are not even useful. Dictatorships can be way more efficient than democracies, Especially if you want something done.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanair 0 #352 April 4, 2012 Any DI will disagree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #353 April 5, 2012 DI?Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #354 April 5, 2012 QuoteDI? Drill Instructor ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #355 April 5, 2012 Copy that - thanks. Of course, people listening to a DI have a very different situation than a jumper who chooses to be on a dz Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #356 April 5, 2012 QuoteOf course, people listening to a DI have a very different situation than a jumper who chooses to be on a dz I don't know about that....I've found the DI approach VERY effective at times....some aspects of DZ policy are NOT open for negotiation....and thats how it should be. Clear borderlines are a must.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #357 April 5, 2012 I make no comment. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4298727;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #358 April 5, 2012 Can't read that one Richard...My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lvintw 0 #359 April 6, 2012 Quote However, a concerted chorus from a multitude of directions tends to make people realise that there is an issue that really needs to be addressed. Sometimes that has to be long and loud, and sometimes extreme, in order to generate even a small shift in attitudes. Banning things isn't necessary. A change in the mindset is. That change has not happened and it won't. Unless all the careless people take themselves out, the only real answer is to reduce or eliminate access to the canopies that are causing this problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #360 April 6, 2012 QuoteThat change has not happened and it won't. Unless all the careless people take themselves out, the only real answer is to reduce or eliminate access to the canopies that are causing this problem. Well I've seen mind sets change in skydiving before, so it is possible. Picking up dead and injured becomes tiresome, so I would expect DZO's to be the first. If they are filling in the pond at Elsinore that might be an indicator to the careless that they need to get their act together or lose access. And the real answer willl prolly happen in countries where national bodies have more control and influence. It might take a while in the US.... An immediate effect could be made if jumpers themselves took ownership of the problem in the interim.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #361 April 6, 2012 Quote the only real answer is to reduce or eliminate access to the canopies that are causing this problem. It is naive to think that will happen. It's not the fault of the equipment - it is the pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #362 April 23, 2012 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4307829;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lvintw 0 #363 April 23, 2012 It is getting pretty ugly over there. When are you going to get on the ball and start demanding change? Will the USPA ever provide a real response that stops these stupid kids from breaking themselves? This is happening much more frequently in the US. Why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #364 April 23, 2012 Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4307829;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Clicky ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #365 April 23, 2012 Quote It is getting pretty ugly over there. When are you going to get on the ball and start demanding change? Will the USPA ever provide a real response that stops these stupid kids from breaking themselves? This is happening much more frequently in the US. Why? What do you want the USPA to do? Tell skydivers with thousands of jumps that they are not allowed to jump an HP canopy? This isn't a 200 jump newbie. Its not students banging themselves up. Its folks with decades of experience. Nothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this. If the DZ's get fed up with it they will ban swooping. Perris has done this. I'm sure more will follow. If you don't want to swoop, awesome. If someone else weighs the risk/reward and has the experience to know better, and the DZ is allowing it, good for them. I'm the first to admit this trend is troubling. But there is little the USPA can do. This ball started rolling along time ago and its going to be tough to stop.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #366 April 24, 2012 There is an answer, it took me a long time to figure it out but a simple solution is at hand: Ban ram-air canopies. You can't swoop a round. Before you all congratulate me on my simple yet elegant solution please find a way to prevent the low pull contests that will inevitably result from a ram-air ban, perhaps a requirement for an AAD set to 2000' AGL will do the trick.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #367 April 24, 2012 Really? I mean, I understand you can't swoop a round per se, but I was told by an old timer that they used to have injuries from people using similar mechanics to swooping with rounds - that they would "hook" T10s and Piglets in. Apparently there were some serious injuries (dont remember if he said any fatals) from this if it was mistimed. Sorry I can't describe the technique they used - I am sure someone here can chime in... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,444 #368 April 24, 2012 A hit-the-ground under a good canopy fatality pretty much always used to involve either an obstacle (water, power lines) or some seriously bad luck (the guy whose chest-mounted altimeter hit his throat and choked him being an example). Decent number of broken ankles and even legs from landings, including downwind accuracy. But swooping pretty much started the ability to hook yourself into the ground fatally. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #369 April 24, 2012 Even a T-10 has a 3-5mph forward speed. If you crank a toggle, you'd start it spinning. Which, would increase its decent rate (remember, you were going to land hard anyway) to some extent..... Nope, I don't think the ram air ban is going to do it. Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lvintw 0 #370 April 25, 2012 QuoteNothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this. So if you REALLY want to stop this, the answer is to reduce or eliminate access to HP canopies. The ongoing incidents prove that a ban on -- or severely restricted access to -- HP canopies is the only thing that would be effective. People keep talking about training and mentoring, but that alone is not working. It's just more talk. The time for talking has come and gone. It's time to DO something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #371 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteNothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this. So if you REALLY want to stop this, the answer is to reduce or eliminate access to HP canopies. The ongoing incidents prove that a ban on -- or severely restricted access to -- HP canopies is the only thing that would be effective. People keep talking about training and mentoring, but that alone is not working. It's just more talk. The time for talking has come and gone. It's time to DO something. To which the traditional response is "Why not ban skydiving then?". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #372 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteNothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this. So if you REALLY want to stop this, the answer is to reduce or eliminate access to HP canopies. The ongoing incidents prove that a ban on -- or severely restricted access to -- HP canopies is the only thing that would be effective. People keep talking about training and mentoring, but that alone is not working. It's just more talk. The time for talking has come and gone. It's time to DO something.. Well then what do you propose? You are talking about banning hp canopies. That will never happen and it shouldn't. Everyone has a choice. Yours may differ from those who are qualified and choose to jump hp canopies. If you want 100% guarantee nobody will get hurt or die this isn't the right lifestyle for you.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #373 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteNothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this. So if you REALLY want to stop this, the answer is to reduce or eliminate access to HP canopies. The ongoing incidents prove that a ban on -- or severely restricted access to -- HP canopies is the only thing that would be effective. People keep talking about training and mentoring, but that alone is not working. It's just more talk. The time for talking has come and gone. It's time to DO something.. Well then what do you propose? You are talking about banning hp canopies. That will never happen and it shouldn't. Everyone has a choice. Yours may differ from those who are qualified and choose to jump hp canopies. If you want 100% guarantee nobody will get hurt or die this isn't the right lifestyle for you. So your answer is to just accept the collateral damage. It's just a cost of jumping HP Canopies??????????? You've had twenty years to stop this little problem and despite all the efforts of those that can be bothered sweet fcuk all has happened. I've said it so many times in this thread: Stop the carnage or someone else will do it for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #374 April 25, 2012 QuoteThis isn't a 200 jump newbie. Its not students banging themselves up. Its folks with decades of experience. Nothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this. Between 2000 and 2005 low turns accounted for 34 fatalities….21 with fewer than 1000 jumps, 13 over 1000 jumps. Between 2006 and 2011 low turns accounted for 22 fatalities…..8 with fewer than 1000 jumps, 14 over 1000 jumps. That’s almost a dead heat with the over 1000 crowd coming on strong the last 3 years. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #375 April 25, 2012 QuoteThat’s almost a dead heat with the over 1000 crowd coming on strong the last 3 years. Are those US fatalities alone?. If not, I'm sure the world wide figures would paint a slightly different picture.... And the figure for "maimed" would I'm sure would show the inexperienced dominating. Its a pity the statistics are so unreliable...My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
