EV's / hybrids as a hedge against natual disasters

[JoeWeber 2,720]

Just now, brenthutch said:

Batteries are not a power source they are merely a store of power.

So is a tank of unleaded but just try plugging your house into that in a power outage. Picking at this is silly. The ability to have your car power your house or your dialysis machine in an emergency or just out camping is an advantage. 

[lippy 918]

21 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

“EV's/PHEV's/hybrids can help with this directly by being alternative power sources”

Batteries are not a power source they are merely a store of power. Fossil fuel generators are an actual source of power. To be fair wind and solar are also a source of power, albeit intermittent and unreliable.

You've said some weird shit here over the years, but now you're claiming a charged battery isn't a power source???  

[brenthutch 444]

1 minute ago, lippy said:

You've said some weird shit here over the years, but now you're claiming a charged battery isn't a power source???  

Where did the power to change the battery come from? Are you claiming that batteries actually produce power? 

[billvon 2,991]

50 minutes ago, lippy said:

You've said some weird shit here over the years, but now you're claiming a charged battery isn't a power source???  

Shhh, he's on a roll.  I suspect he meant energy but then he got going.

[lippy 918]

50 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Where did the power to change the battery come from? Are you claiming that batteries actually produce power? 

Next you'll say a hamburger isn't food because it can't produce a calf.  

[billvon 2,991]

8 minutes ago, lippy said:

Next you'll say a hamburger isn't food because it can't produce a calf.  

That's hamberder to Trump supporters.

[brenthutch 444]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

So is a tank of unleaded but just try plugging your house into that in a power outage. Picking at this is silly. The ability to have your car power your house or your dialysis machine in an emergency or just out camping is an advantage. 

So is a generator

[JoeWeber 2,720]

Just now, brenthutch said:

So is a generator

But they suck. Carry this to the cross if that’s your hearts desire, but I’m getting a used EV for an emergency and mobile power source because it makes sense. No fumes or noise , lots of power and you have a spare car for short runs. What’s not to like?

[billvon 2,991]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

But they suck. Carry this to the cross if that’s your hearts desire, but I’m getting a used EV for an emergency and mobile power source because it makes sense. No fumes or noise , lots of power and you have a spare car for short runs. What’s not to like?

And EV's just work.  Most people who have generators have had them in their shed for ~11 years, and when they pull them out during the unexpected blackout - they don't start.

Of course, without a generator, you are reliant on an evil green leftie EV or PHEV.  And some would rather die.

 

[brenthutch 444]

3 minutes ago, billvon said:

And EV's just work.  Most people who have generators have had them in their shed for 11 years, and when they pull them out during the unexpected blackout - they don't start.

And an 11 year old EV will “just work”? Oh I guess we don’t know as we have yet to see an eleven year old EV save the day.

[lippy 918]

5 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

And an 11 year old EV will “just work”? 

WHOOOOOSH

[brenthutch 444]

21 minutes ago, lippy said:

WHOOOOOSH

“While there is some variation from year to year, it seems that a car loses around 1% of range a year for the first 7 years or so, but then the rates increases. By ten years of age, cars were down to 82.5% of the original capacity.”

A <20% EV battery is not going to save the day.

Edited June 10, 2024 by brenthutch

[lippy 918]

31 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

“While there is some variation from year to year, it seems that a car loses around 1% of range a year for the first 7 years or so, but then the rates increases. By ten years of age, cars were down to 82.5% of the original capacity.”

A <20% EV battery is not going to save the day.

Of course! Everybody knows that a battery at 80% capacity is absolutely useless.  It's scientifically impossible for such a thing to keep the fridge powered and food from spoiling until the mains come back on.  

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

11 minutes ago, lippy said:

Of course! Everybody knows that a battery at 80% capacity is absolutely useless.  It's scientifically impossible for such a thing to keep the fridge powered and food from spoiling until the mains come back on.  

The technology is improving.

One detrimental factor is charging. Rapid charging, charging to full capacity, failing to maintain proper temperature while charging are among the bigger factors.

Remember when Chicago experienced the cold snap last winter and the Tesla chargers were overwhelmed?
That was because the battery heaters couldn't warm the packs enough to allow full speed rapid charging.

Properly managed, the packs can maintain full capacity for a decent amount of time. And that's getting better and better.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

7 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

“While there is some variation from year to year, it seems that a car loses around 1% of range a year for the first 7 years or so, but then the rates increases. By ten years of age, cars were down to 82.5% of the original capacity.”

A <20% EV battery is not going to save the day.

Did you even read your own unattributed quote? 82.5% of original capacity is awesome for a backup power mission. You are mistaken that means it's then at <20% capacity.

[brenthutch 444]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Did you even read your own unattributed quote? 82.5% of original capacity is awesome for a backup power mission. You are mistaken that means it's then at <20% capacity.

You are correct, I misread that and took it to say down by 82.5%

[JoeWeber 2,720]

Just now, brenthutch said:

You are correct, I misread that and took it to say down by 82.5%

No matter, I fuck up too - sometimes three. So past that, even if a guy does believe EV's aren't all they're fracked up to be, it does make them a convenient back-up power source with attendant advantages, no? They're going to be around, win or lose in the car sphere, and as good as ICE vehicles are, we still find uses for horses, steam power, and sailing vessels.

[olofscience 480]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

You are correct, I misread that and took it to say down by 82.5%

Nope, the standard calculation for lithium battery lifetime is charge cycles up to when it reaches around 80% of original capacity.

 

As usual you're not posting the source link so you can be free to "misread" things to make complete lies.

[Phil1111 1,149]

Isn't the real hedge against disasters. Solar panels, storage and inverters? They can continue to run long past the empty gas stations become shooting galleries of survivalists looking for the last drop of fuel.

[Phil1111 1,149]

12 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Nope, the standard calculation for lithium battery lifetime is charge cycles up to when it reaches around 80% of original capacity.

 

As usual you're not posting the source link so you can be free to "misread" things to make complete lies.

Don't be so harsh. He's half way to admitting he was wrong about something.

[CygnusX-1 43]

3 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Don't be so harsh. He's half way to admitting he was wrong about something.

Brent has admitted when he was wrong in the past. I at least give him that. But in this instance, I think it really shows his bias. He was so eager to show or state something that he thought would put batteries in a bad light, that he misrepresented the quote.

He did it earlier in this thread when he was trying to state that batteries are not a power source but only storage, implying that fossil fuels are better in that manner. He says this without realizing that fossil fuels are likewise only a storage medium, just with a much longer shelf life.

[billvon 2,991]

3 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Isn't the real hedge against disasters. Solar panels, storage and inverters? 

Sure but they are $$.  If you get an EV there's no (or very little) additional cost to be able to use the battery's power.  They are also mobile, so you can drive your EV down to a gas station that needs power to run its pumps.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

Sure but they are $$.  If you get an EV there's no (or very little) additional cost to be able to use the battery's power.  They are also mobile, so you can drive your EV down to a gas station that needs power to run its pumps.

It's also a very useful device aside from it's use as backup power. 

Just about everyone has a car. Not a whole lot of people have backup generators.
People who have cars typically use them on a regular basis.
People who have backup generators either have to fire them up on a regular basis (larger installs usually run them for an hour or so every month) or just 'let them sit and hope they work when needed'.

[billvon 2,991]

This is now being used on a small scale to deal with power outages.  Earlier this year, a storm caused damage to a transmission line in Australia, causing a coal power plant to trip off-line.  This immediately caused a blackout for 90,000 people, and the blackout was growing as the grid destabilized from the sudden loss of power.  However, 16 EVs were connected via V2G chargers and automatically started feeding ~100kw of power back to stabilize the grid, preventing the outage from growing.

Had there been ~100,000 EVs plugged in to the grid at the time (which would be less than 0.5% of Australia's cars) then the blackout would not have happened to begin with.

 

https://eandt.theiet.org/2024/07/10/v2g-evs-prove-they-are-big-batteries-wheels-they-power-electricity-grid-during-blackout