What's with these USPA rules? Are they really necessary?

[Di0 2]

nigel99

In that light - do you have to be a USPA member to jump at Lodi?

As far as I know, nope. Lodi is probably the biggest DZ in the US which is not USPA member, so no membership required there.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Guru312 0]

nigel99

******

Surely people have to agree with this, right?

...

NOBODY is agreeing with you. Not one.

Do you have any idea how rare unanimous opinion on here is?

Exactly.

I am 72 years old. I've been hanging around this wonderful sport for over 50 years. I've been a drop zone operator, Instructor, jumpmaster, pilot, rigger and fun jumper.

I have learned that people who have an attitude such as yours die early.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[shropshire 0]

labrys

Quote

OP - there's a great RCMP video posted today about a CURRENT motorcyclist fucking around with a POV camera and near killing himself

To hell with him... he almost killed a bear cub.

I agree that biker is a moron and pretty much got what he deserved.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[piisfish 140]

talking about motorbikes/MX/FMX and Go-Pros, there is one interesting "what could possibly go wrong" video

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[SpectreDriver 0]

Well, I'm gonna open myself up here and say I sorta see the guy's point. When I started in the sport (mid-90's), all you had to do was finish AFF and you were almost good-to-go at any DZ. Once I had my license (At 20 logged jumps and a signature. Period. No "coaching" was involved), I was good-to-go at every DZ I visited!

This went on for 10 years with many 6-month layovers.

However, as a pilot with lots of experience memorizing basic checklists/ Emergency Procedures and flying/ landing multiple aircraft, I found skydiving and canopy control quite easy from Jump #1. I can honestly say my lack of currency/ experience never put anyone at risk.

At the 13-year-point with 350 jumps, I suddenly found myself jumping lots more because I started my own DZ-- I now have 1700 or so (mostly tandems) but still pray I can handle my first real "oh-shit" situation!

Now, enough about me. My experience isn't necessarily a good thing for modern times. He's right about the "lowest common denominator" being the basis for rules and regulations. It HAS to be that way when you have a sudden surge of newbies joining a somewhat high skill-level (and high visibility!) activity as we've had over the past 6-8 years. Skydiving is becoming very mainstream and modern media is instantaneous when something goes wrong.

Bummer this guy didn't join the sport 15-20 years ago, but guess what? He didn't. It's a new age for *everything* now and *everything* in society is more visible and thereby must be more regulated. If he's a "natural"-- like I was :) -- it sucks he has to deal with this.

The solution for you, sir?? Get your logbook up to, say, 50 or 75 jumps instead of 15, have an actual *license* in your hand, and manifest will look at you with much less scrutiny in regards to currency.

That is all.

[JeffCa 0]

The OP is probably a troll, but everybody else is right when they write that the conversation is worth having. I'm going to try to word my post to not address the likely troll himself, but rather the argument being presented.

From the scuba diving world, there is a book called Diver Down. It contains a summary of real-life fatal and near-fatal events in diving, what caused them, and how to prevent them from happening to you.

In the book, there's a story about a new hotshot cave diver. Diving in underwater caves is more dangerous than regular diving for obvious reasons. The cave diving community has developed some basic guidelines for safety. One is to always dive with a buddy, somebody who can help you when things go wrong. The other is the rule of thirds, that states you use 1/3 of your air on the way in to the cave, then turn around. The second 1/3 is to get out of the cave and the other 1/3 is for safety.

Along came this guy who decided that the rules were more like guidelines (like the Pirate Code) and didn't apply to him. He was an engineer, and he was smarter than the general public who made up the rest of the cave diving community. He figured that he didn't need a buddy, it would just distract him and slow him down. He also figured that he could use a little more than 1/2 of his air on the way in, because it took less time to get out of a cave than to get in. Reserve air was not needed because he was too good and too careful to lose his way.

Well, he died by running out of air in a cave with nobody there to help him, much to nobody's surprise.

Perhaps the skydiving community needs a book like Diver Down? I'm guessing that somebody like Billvon would already have enough stories, they'd just need to be compiled and published.

The second point I'd like to make is that somebody making the arguments we're seeing here would himself be the lowest common denominator, the one the rules are there to protect. A person holding these opinions will not accept mere "recommendations" from a committee of much more experienced skydivers, so binding rules have to be imposed to make sure the recommendations are followed and to keep him safe.

Ironically, many of us who are responding don't need as many binding rules as such a person does, because we're willing to take recommendations from the USPA (or other country's organisation) committee and our instructors as law. For many of us, the 200 jumps (USPA) for camera recommendation is already concrete, and just a minimum to begin considering it. We don't need a rule to be put in place to keep us from jumping one before 200 jumps. Many of us don't need a rule telling us to always do a gear check, # of jumps for wingsuit, and so on. The rules are there to protect those who don't take recommendations as important enough to be followed.

Those idiots who don't know how to use their GoPro, but who follow recommendations, are probably less likely to end up dead than somebody holding the attitudes we're seeing here.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[DougH 270]

SpectreDriver

Bummer this guy didn't join the sport 15-20 years ago, but guess what? He didn't.

No it isn't really a bummer, more of a relief. Just because he might have skirted under the radar back then doesn't mean that would have been better.

If he kept up his lack luster interest in the sport, 15 jumps in 5 years, he would have what 45 jumps at best? Let imagine it was 200, and he has a big swinging dick D license too!

Don't get me wrong, I know a few long time jumpers that were slow and steady, that have been in the sport back when my parents were still wiping my ass. They are safe, they have some good knowledge because of being in the sport for 30 years, even if they weren't deeply immersed. I wouldn't take them on a 20 way, but I would do a smaller jump with them in a heart beat. I respect them, and their stories are cooler than mine!

There are also some jumpers that have been in the sport for 20 years, the come out of the woodwork for their 3 or 5 jumps a year that are fucking scary. They weren't safe or good skydivers back when they started, they never committed enough to learn back then, and they aren't any better now.

If he skirted under the radar in the Utopian skydiving 90's, an amassed a huge number of 200 jumps by now, and he would be on here bitching about the dropzone not letting him fly his Velo 90 that he got off the classifieds.

Don't they KNOW that he has 20 year of canopy flight experince.
Don't they KNOW he saw some other jumper with ratings screw up their landing, HE IS BETTER THAN THAT!

It isn't his currency, it is his attitude. It was already said earlier above... the sport doesn't need more of his type.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[obelixtim 150]

JeffCa

The OP is probably a troll, but everybody else is right when they write that the conversation is worth having. I'm going to try to word my post to not address the likely troll himself, but rather the argument being presented.

From the scuba diving world, there is a book called Diver Down. It contains a summary of real-life fatal and near-fatal events in diving, what caused them, and how to prevent them from happening to you.

In the book, there's a story about a new hotshot cave diver. Diving in underwater caves is more dangerous than regular diving for obvious reasons. The cave diving community has developed some basic guidelines for safety. One is to always dive with a buddy, somebody who can help you when things go wrong. The other is the rule of thirds, that states you use 1/3 of your air on the way in to the cave, then turn around. The second 1/3 is to get out of the cave and the other 1/3 is for safety.

Along came this guy who decided that the rules were more like guidelines (like the Pirate Code) and didn't apply to him. He was an engineer, and he was smarter than the general public who made up the rest of the cave diving community. He figured that he didn't need a buddy, it would just distract him and slow him down. He also figured that he could use a little more than 1/2 of his air on the way in, because it took less time to get out of a cave than to get in. Reserve air was not needed because he was too good and too careful to lose his way.

Well, he died by running out of air in a cave with nobody there to help him, much to nobody's surprise.

Perhaps the skydiving community needs a book like Diver Down? I'm guessing that somebody like Billvon would already have enough stories, they'd just need to be compiled and published.

The second point I'd like to make is that somebody making the arguments we're seeing here would himself be the lowest common denominator, the one the rules are there to protect. A person holding these opinions will not accept mere "recommendations" from a committee of much more experienced skydivers, so binding rules have to be imposed to make sure the recommendations are followed and to keep him safe.

Ironically, many of us who are responding don't need as many binding rules as such a person does, because we're willing to take recommendations from the USPA (or other country's organisation) committee and our instructors as law. For many of us, the 200 jumps (USPA) for camera recommendation is already concrete, and just a minimum to begin considering it. We don't need a rule to be put in place to keep us from jumping one before 200 jumps. Many of us don't need a rule telling us to always do a gear check, # of jumps for wingsuit, and so on. The rules are there to protect those who don't take recommendations as important enough to be followed.

Those idiots who don't know how to use their GoPro, but who follow recommendations, are probably less likely to end up dead than somebody holding the attitudes we're seeing here.

Good post.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[LyraM45 0]

NWFlyer

*** I realize I was simply overlooking the obvious. That like so many other things in life, the rules are set up for the "weakest links" aka biggest morons. Which ruins it for others who do not need such rudimentary treatment. I sort of had it in my head that skydivers in general were smarter than the general public, that the sport attracted sharper minded people, but realistically I realize now they simply are the general public...


Guess I just have to fit in and deal with rudimentary treatment that the few weakest links may need, causing everyone to be subjected to it. Have to do my skydives in small groups, rather than singles. Appreciate the responses, and I can assure you, you are not "feeding a troll", my questions/opinions are all legit.

Holy shitballs I love this. You come in and state that anyone who dies or gets hurt in this sport is a "weakest link" or a "biggest moron." You disrespect the sport and everyone in it and yet expect us to respect you and your opinions?

That's rich.

That was my response! He essentially said "oh, I see the rules were made for all the dumb people, but I'm not one of them and know everything so I should be able to do what I want."

It's to the point where I just have to laugh now!

If this guy isn't a troll, he needs to be served up a piece of humble pie. Hopefully not as bad as the slice that Sangi got, but enough to make him realize he's just another one of the bunch that doesn't know what he doesn't know, smart or not, and the rules are there for a reason.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[LyraM45 0]

Di0

***

In that light - do you have to be a USPA member to jump at Lodi?

As far as I know, nope. Lodi is probably the biggest DZ in the US which is not USPA member, so no membership required there.

And he could probably get away with all that he wants there and nobody will even second guess him.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[grimmie 186]

There aren't enough trees to publish a 'Skydiver Down" book.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

grimmie

There aren't enough trees to publish a 'Skydiver Down" book.

Hey! OP.... ^^^THIS^^^ This is why we have all those senseless rules. These rules are written in blood. Some of us were fortunate to survive our stupidity. Others (some very close friends) were not so lucky.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Di0 2]

Alright, I got my 15th jump in today.
Now I'm sitting on the porch drinking a beer and waiting for those legendary mad skillz to come in me too.

Meanwhile, I know USPA Nationals are coming soon, so if anybody wants me in their 4way team, I'll be happy to be the team leader. I plan on bitching a lot on several forums from now until then, instead of wasting my time skydiving, so I should be in tip-top shape for the competition!

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[DocPop 1]

Di0

Alright, I got my 15th jump in today.
Now I'm sitting on the porch drinking a beer and waiting for those legendary mad skillz to come in me too.

If you drink at the DZ long enough - someone will come in you.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ILUVCHUTERS 1]

DocPop

If you drink at the DZ long enough - someone will come in you.

ok THIS made me spit coffee on my keyboard. Thanks

[chuckakers 426]

Troll alert. Go do something constructive, dood.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[woppyvac 0]

End this thread here. This cat is wrong on almost all counts. Let him keep barking about rules and regulations set up to protect him from himself and limit him from being a safety hazard to others. These rules also are proving to have another valuable role: they aid in eliminating folks like him from continuing in the sport... thank the gods. I hope he doesn't become a stat that will negatively affect the sports image.


Me

Woot Woot!

[Di0 2]

DocPop

If you drink at the DZ long enough - someone will come in you.

ugh... touche', sir. The things English as a second language speakers end up saying... (and get away with)

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[DocPop 1]

Di0

***

If you drink at the DZ long enough - someone will come in you.

ugh... touche', sir. The things English as a second language speakers end up saying... (and get away with)

Just messing with ya - no offense meant!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Di0 2]

DocPop

Just messing with ya - no offense meant!

Yup, I was joking too, I know it is all in good spirit. :)

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[DocPop 1]

woppyvac

This cat is ..... barking about rules....

Interesting mixture of metaphors!

[Yes, I am more interested in this type of thing than what the OP had to say!]

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[cbjetboy 0]

cbjetboy

***15 jumps in 5 years is not a hobby.


Well maybe for a troll it is

^^ Troll

chuckakers

Troll alert. Go do something constructive, dood.

^^ Troll

Chad B Hall
Woo hoo!
My goal is to make every jump a fun and safe one. Blue skies!
Some of my videos...

[woppyvac 0]

I try to keep em' diverse

Woot Woot!

[Rick 67]

woppyvac

I try to keep em' diverse

nice avatar

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[labrys 0]

DocPop

***This cat is ..... barking about rules....

Interesting mixture of metaphors!


Barking Cat

Owned by Remi #?