Trump

[billvon 3,049]

1 hour ago, dogyks said:

Okay, we agree that racism & sexisim suck.  My problem is with the idea that 'good' racism & sexism can fix 'bad' racism & sexism.

You are thinking of affirmative action (hiring unqualified blacks to 'give them a chance') not DEI (hiring the most qualified person even if he/she is black.)

 

[dogyks 9]

10 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Don,

+ 100%.

Whenever I ask anyone who wants to take this country 'back to where it was,' just where do you want to take it; I usually get a response such as, 'You know . . . '

In reality, they have not a clue as to 'where they want to take it back' to.

They just don't like things as they are now.

Jerry Baumchen

I'm trying to recall supporting MAGA or going back to the good old days in Mayberry or whatever.  Nothing comes to mind.

I contend that the way to end discrimination is not to discriminate.  I realize this is a subtle concept, which appears tough for some to grasp, but I've seen it work in practice.

The idea that anyone who has issue with DEI supports MAGA by default is an interesting one, but it is far from accurate. 

 

[jakee 1,553]

12 minutes ago, dogyks said:

I contend that the way to end discrimination is not to discriminate.  I realize this is a subtle concept, which appears tough for some to grasp, but I've seen it work in practice.

You don't contend that. You contend that people who want to discriminate should be allowed to discriminate. That's literally it. 

You've never expressed any interest in ending discrimination, and you do nothing but viciously attack anyone who does want to.

16 minutes ago, dogyks said:

The idea that anyone who has issue with DEI supports MAGA by default is an interesting one, but it is far from accurate. 

Well, hates DEI and thinks Trump is the best person to be president. That's kind of a pretty big chunk of what MAGA is.

[JoeWeber 2,790]

22 minutes ago, dogyks said:

I contend that the way to end discrimination is not to discriminate.

In my view, you could not be more correct. I have striven to practice that truth in every position of power I have ever had and take it on faith that you have done the same. Certainly we both know others who are not so much motivated by conscious as by laws and that's not only too bad it's also why we try to level things out in life. Of course, who might actually be the best candidate for advancement based on potential vs. someone with more experience and impeccable credentials is not an uncommon decision in business and has disjointed many noses, for sure. So I think the idea that we need ideas like DEI is the biggest problem with it.

[BIGUN 1,366]

3 hours ago, dogyks said:

DEI/woke is bigotry that would shame a Grand Wizard of you swapped out the identities.  Stick to Equality, Merit and Integrity and you'll be fine.

Diversity & Equality are synonomous. 

Equity is defined as, "The quality of being fair and impartial."

Inclusion is hiring those based on merit no matter their race, creed, color or religion.

Integrity - doing the right thing for the right reason.  

I've never understood the noise surrounding DEI, EEO, These things no matter what you call them are in the Constitution. 14th Amendment.  

 

[nigel99 550]

4 hours ago, dogyks said:

Even if inequality is a problem, DEI is anything but a solution.  It is institutionalized inequality implemented by charlatans.

I abhor racism and sexism, and DEI elevates these to an art form.

I agree with the sentiment expressed by everyone that snarky comments and labelling people is unhelpful. Biguns point about black and white thinking (psychology term, not race) is bad. 

The problem with your posts is that Trump/Musk can do anything and you shrug it off as “just …” and go onto to rationalise it is for the greater good, while making sure to mention that it’s better than Biden etc. 

I’m not sure how any American can support people who do nazi salutes, car sales from the Whitehouse, deliberate lies and deception, celebrate the pain of immigrants and the disadvantaged. 

the thread about white power in the US has many examples of where this administration has stepped well past the line of racist behaviour. If you honestly believe sexism and racism is bad, how come you’re not as vocal about this administration covering/removing the names of non white and female people who lost their lives fighting for your country? I forget the agency (NSA or CIA). A vast number of American citizens speak Spanish, yet it’s not racially driven that this administration has declared English the official language and removed Spanish language versions of important government websites?

I’m sorry but your posts show no evidence that you’re against racism and sexism. 

[wmw999 2,507]

2 hours ago, dogyks said:

I contend that the way to end discrimination is not to discriminate.  I realize this is a subtle concept, which appears tough for some to grasp, but I've seen it work in practice.

Fine. You don't discriminate. Except against any Democrats, women with funny laughs, anyone who tries to be aware of discrimination, or any victimhood besides your own in having to work with and interact with substandard humans. But those are all real issues, as opposed to the silly ones like people thinking that anything but their essential inadequacy affects their careers.

Bullshit.

Wendy P.

[dogyks 9]

38 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Diversity & Equality are synonomous. 

Equity is defined as, "The quality of being fair and impartial."

Inclusion is hiring those based on merit no matter their race, creed, color or religion.

Integrity - doing the right thing for the right reason.  

I've never understood the noise surrounding DEI, EEO, These things no matter what you call them are in the Constitution. 14th Amendment.  

 

We get back to varying definitions.

Equality is equal opportunity, where achievement is the result of initiative and hard work.  If I'm working on a system using, say, large amounts of hydrogen fluoride or cyanide (which I have) I don't want peer review by someone whose credentials resulted from a grandparent's donation to the school or by otherwise being immune from bad grades.

Equity, OTOH, is equality of OUTCOME, where credentials are awarded to the "deserving.". Big difference.

I've worked with mediocre and brilliant talent of every stripe, and reserve the right to trust my life to someone without consideration of their race, sex, sexual preference or what have you.  When working with lethal service, nobody gets a pass.

[billvon 3,049]

3 hours ago, dogyks said:

I contend that the way to end discrimination is not to discriminate.  I realize this is a subtle concept, which appears tough for some to grasp, but I've seen it work in practice.

Exactly.  To avoid discrimination, you have to make sure that you're not being swayed by your own biases.  You have to learn how to interview/evaluate everyone fairly, so that no one group gets a leg up over another.  You have to allow people with disabilities that don't affect their job to be considered along with everyone else.

In other words, you have to do DEI.

Quote

I don't want peer review by someone whose credentials resulted from a grandparent's donation to the school or by otherwise being immune from bad grades.

Also exactly right.  Which means you have to understand, and counter, those pressures, whether those pressures come from "it's a rich donor's child" or "it's the CEO's nephew" or "he's black and you know THOSE people."

Again, DEI.

[nigel99 550]

25 minutes ago, dogyks said:

I've worked with mediocre and brilliant talent of every stripe, and reserve the right to trust my life to someone without consideration of their race, sex, sexual preference or what have you.  When working with lethal service, nobody gets a pass.

Yet you scream about dei? Do you not understand what dei is? Bias and prejudice are inherent in people, it’s almost biologically wired. It takes effort and education to override those instincts.

The talking heads on the right would have you believe that simply being black or female means you’re incompetent and less than a white male.

Your beliefs leak through in your posts and to quote Wendy “bullshit”. 

[olofscience 489]

33 minutes ago, dogyks said:

where credentials are awarded to the "deserving."

Give evidence on where this happened.

I can give one - Trump's degree.

Edited March 13 by olofscience

[JoeWeber 2,790]

46 minutes ago, dogyks said:

Equity, OTOH, is equality of OUTCOME, where credentials are awarded to the "deserving.". Big difference.

Fair enough. But how does that work in practice? An ATP is an ATP and 10,000 hours are 10,000 hours, right? In addition to your PhD is someone tasked with reading your dissertation and making a judgement call? What about at the pizzeria? Is it immaterial who gets to be assistant manager? 

 

51 minutes ago, dogyks said:

When working with lethal service, nobody gets a pass.

Have you ever gone skydiving? 

[billvon 3,049]

14 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Give evidence on where this happened.

I can give one - Trump's degree.

Another one - JD Vance's admission to college.  He openly admits that he would not have gotten in without an affirmative action program that allowed poorer kids to attend Yale.  From their website - "our goal is to enroll a talented, diverse, and engaged entering class."  JD himself admitted this.  "The truth is, if it was not for the Yellow Ribbon Program I would not be going to law school."

But when you mention that JD Vance was a beneficiary of a diversity program. conservatives stutter a bit and then say "but . . . he's not black!"  They say that because DEI has become a dog whistle for "black" and "female."

[JoeWeber 2,790]

We get back to varying definitions.

26 minutes ago, billvon said:

Another one - JD Vance's admission to college.  He openly admits that he would not have gotten in without an affirmative action program that allowed poorer kids to attend Yale.  From their website - "our goal is to enroll a talented, diverse, and engaged entering class."  JD himself admitted this.  "The truth is, if it was not for the Yellow Ribbon Program I would not be going to law school."

But when you mention that JD Vance was a beneficiary of a diversity program. conservatives stutter a bit and then say "but . . . he's not black!"  They say that because DEI has become a dog whistle for "black" and "female."

Winsor is right when he states that: "We get back to varying definitions". Same as when we're advised that we are talking past one and other. Of course those are the reasons why the concept of DEI was borne: varying definitions and talking past one and other. He's also right when he points out the possible injustices that such concerns might cause. We proponents are more concerned with the actual and countable injustices that birthed DEI. But then I'm not sure I've ever been harmed by the idea.

[jakee 1,553]

6 hours ago, dogyks said:

We get back to varying definitions.

Equality is equal opportunity, where achievement is the result of initiative and hard work.  If I'm working on a system using, say, large amounts of hydrogen fluoride or cyanide (which I have) I don't want peer review by someone whose credentials resulted from a grandparent's donation to the school or by otherwise being immune from bad grades.

And yet this is the first time you’ve mentioned it, when it’s actually a faaaaaar bigger thing than DEI. When the SC struck down Harvard’s DEI admissions program (a decision I’m sure you were a huge fan of) they left the preferential donor/alumni admissions door wide open. Result, by getting rid of DEI a bigger proportion of Harvard grads are only there because they’re someone’s grandkid. 
 

It’s a subtle thing to get your head around, which is obviously why you missed it. You’d rather use the staggeringly racist blunt instrument of shouting about DRI being worse than the KKK.

[thelivo 7]

14 hours ago, dogyks said:

Long term survival often entails short term pain

Ahhh - one of those that thinks Trump is playing long range 4d chess, rather than simply trying to have vengeance on anyone who has slighted him. Enough said.

[wmw999 2,507]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

We proponents are more concerned with the actual and countable injustices that birthed DEI. But then I'm not sure I've ever been harmed by the idea.

I'm sure there are some. Everyone can be an asshole, everyone can be incompetent. But sometimes it's hard to see the truth when incompetence or assholeness is described differently based on gender or color ("she's just a bitch" is generally far more damning than "he's an asshole." You can admire an asshole, no one admires a bitch) ("he got there because of DEI" rather than "he got there because he was marginally ready at the right time, and his boss likes him"). Subtle, but in each case, the white man is an individual, and the woman/minority is an exemplar of their entire class of person.

So why shouldn't I, therefore, assume that all white men are (whatever the most negative thing that's happened)

Wendy P.

[dogyks 9]

22 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I'm sure there are some. Everyone can be an asshole, everyone can be incompetent. But sometimes it's hard to see the truth when incompetence or assholeness is described differently based on gender or color ("she's just a bitch" is generally far more damning than "he's an asshole." You can admire an asshole, no one admires a bitch) ("he got there because of DEI" rather than "he got there because he was marginally ready at the right time, and his boss likes him"). Subtle, but in each case, the white man is an individual, and the woman/minority is an exemplar of their entire class of person.

So why shouldn't I, therefore, assume that all white men are (whatever the most negative thing that's happened)

Wendy P.

You don't?

[dogyks 9]

9 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Fair enough. But how does that work in practice? An ATP is an ATP and 10,000 hours are 10,000 hours, right? In addition to your PhD is someone tasked with reading your dissertation and making a judgement call? What about at the pizzeria? Is it immaterial who gets to be assistant manager? 

 

Have you ever gone skydiving? 

There's the old 1,000 jumps versus 100 jumps 10 times.

 My thesis defense involved educating the committee on a novel control strategy, it went well.

Dr. Peter's work illustrates the perils attendant upon promoting someone to a management role for which they are ill suited.

When skydiving, if I get it wrong my crater gets grid coordinates.

If I sign off on drawings for a high explosives facility and overlook a source of detonation, the crater is larger, smoking and results in body parts of a few grams max, distributed over a very large area.

Kinda like if I pencil pack an emergency parachute and it almost works, but on a larger scale.

[wmw999 2,507]

1 hour ago, dogyks said:

You don't?

No, I try to evaluate and treat them as individuals -- and it all depends on how they treat me when we're talking relationship. If we're talking consulting, they still have to treat me with a modicum of respect -- would you go to a doctor who ignored your questions? Or a mechanic who said "trust me, little lady?" (yes, that really happens).They might be hyper-competent, but how exactly would I know if they won't actually talk to me and treat me as though I'm a sentient human being?

Wendy P.

[jakee 1,553]

1 hour ago, dogyks said:

Dr. Peter's work illustrates the perils attendant upon promoting someone to a management role for which they are ill suited.

I must have missed the bit at the end of the Peter principle that says ‘and this is what you get with DEI’. Let’s try an experiment - hands up everyone who has ever had a white manager or boss who was incompetent, demoralising or otherwise contributed to suboptimal results. Hey Winsor, is your hand up? Of course it is. So what the fuck are you talking about conflating DEI with the Peter principle?

Here’s the thing - without DEI you get more incompetent white male managers because of the inherent assumptions among many upper level managers that the white man is a better choice than the black person or the woman. 
 

“We all want a meritocracy, but too often we don’t have them,” Williams says. “There is one group in professional workplaces where over 90% believe they are working in meritocracies – and that’s white men. Every other group has sharply less confidence that they are working in meritocracies because they feel that they are being held to a different standard.” And those people tend to be correct. “We did 22 DEI experiments inside companies,” says Williams. “One company was horrified to find that they were hiring white men who had lower ratings than women and people of colour who weren’t hired.“

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/13/trump-war-dei-american-straight-white-man-diversity-equity-inclusion

[JoeWeber 2,790]

5 hours ago, dogyks said:

There's the old 1,000 jumps versus 100 jumps 10 times.

 My thesis defense involved educating the committee on a novel control strategy, it went well.

Dr. Peter's work illustrates the perils attendant upon promoting someone to a management role for which they are ill suited.

When skydiving, if I get it wrong my crater gets grid coordinates.

If I sign off on drawings for a high explosives facility and overlook a source of detonation, the crater is larger, smoking and results in body parts of a few grams max, distributed over a very large area.

Kinda like if I pencil pack an emergency parachute and it almost works, but on a larger scale.

I think you stated that when working with a lethal service, nobody gets a pass. Of course, that's not to mean du, bitte, it means everyone around you ie., packers, parachute sewers, aircraft mechanics, or even the desk girl who checks your reserve card for the date because that's all they need to do to claim legality and then casually wraps your boogie band around your bridle. If you have done this a lot, and you have you have, then like the rest of us you have on occasion held your nose and given a pass. 

[normiss 833]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

I'm sure there are some. Everyone can be an asshole, everyone can be incompetent. But sometimes it's hard to see the truth when incompetence or assholeness is described differently based on gender or color ("she's just a bitch" is generally far more damning than "he's an asshole." You can admire an asshole, no one admires a bitch) ("he got there because of DEI" rather than "he got there because he was marginally ready at the right time, and his boss likes him"). Subtle, but in each case, the white man is an individual, and the woman/minority is an exemplar of their entire class of person.

So why shouldn't I, therefore, assume that all white men are (whatever the most negative thing that's happened)

Wendy P.

This reminds me of getting laid off from the phone company. There were 13 of us supporting the nationwide network, backbone of the network as it was called. Layoffs are coming. I get an email invite to a meeting with my boss and got laid off. I was the senior Cisco engineer, everyone else was Juniper, TELCO, or ALU specific. Why me? Looking at the team, most everyone had been with the company over 10 years, a few over 30. I was the lowest on seniority, the other one closest to my tenure, was a woman. That was the deciding point made in HR according to my boss, but he was never clear on the decision process in place. My boss was soon laid off as well, after 32 years. I'm thankful I was in the first round, the packages were later capped at lower money. My boss and I are still friends, he also bought a house in NC so we still get together for beers and dinners. 

 

[normiss 833]

5 hours ago, jakee said:

I must have missed the bit at the end of the Peter principle that says ‘and this is what you get with DEI’. Let’s try an experiment - hands up everyone who has ever had a white manager or boss who was incompetent, demoralising or otherwise contributed to suboptimal results. Hey Winsor, is your hand up? Of course it is. So what the fuck are you talking about conflating DEI with the Peter principle?

Here’s the thing - without DEI you get more incompetent white male managers because of the inherent assumptions among many upper level managers that the white man is a better choice than the black person or the woman. 
 

“We all want a meritocracy, but too often we don’t have them,” Williams says. “There is one group in professional workplaces where over 90% believe they are working in meritocracies – and that’s white men. Every other group has sharply less confidence that they are working in meritocracies because they feel that they are being held to a different standard.” And those people tend to be correct. “We did 22 DEI experiments inside companies,” says Williams. “One company was horrified to find that they were hiring white men who had lower ratings than women and people of colour who weren’t hired.“

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/13/trump-war-dei-american-straight-white-man-diversity-equity-inclusion

The part I highlighted I have heard before!

"We ain't hiring no ni**ers at Intergraph" - I promptly left that company after that.

The redneck from Georgia that was hired, has also racist. Also quite useless unless the FLUF position was being filled. "Fat Little Useless Fuck". 

[dogyks 9]

57 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I think you stated that when working with a lethal service, nobody gets a pass. Of course, that's not to mean du, bitte, it means everyone around you ie., packers, parachute sewers, aircraft mechanics, or even the desk girl who checks your reserve card for the date because that's all they need to do to claim legality and then casually wraps your boogie band around your bridle. If you have done this a lot, and you have you have, then like the rest of us you have on occasion held your nose and given a pass. 

Okay, I roasted a valve coming back from Bridge Day and the local mechanic 'fixed' it and signed it off.  It ran terribly and he said it was my carburetor, which I knew it wasn't.

The owners of the airport wouldn't allow any other mechanics to work there, so I had to get it to another airport to get it out of their hands.  I got adequate RPMs and made the 10 minute flight to the nearest airport uneventfully, planning for an engine out landing if necessary.

It turns out they had put chrome rings in a chrome cylinder, which is bad juju.  The cylinder was cracked in 5 places, I had metal in the filter and wound up getting an overhaul ahead of schedule.

Since these guys stood by their work, I got the local FSDO to give their opinion.  When asked what the hell I was thinking taking off with that airplane, I responded that it was signed off by a licensed A&P so it was all good.  The response was not fit for print, but came down to 'don't hand me that!  You knew exactly what you were doing.'

The mechanic had his license pulled (it eventually got reinstated) and I just got a dressing down.

Thus, while I was going to dispute your claim that I held my nose and gave it a pass.  I can't think of having done so when anyone else's life was at stake, and much rather have someone mad at me because I wouldn't sign something off than to do so and wonder what would happen.

One sailplane pilot gave me an emergency reserve to repack, but I couldn't seal it because it was Danish and not TSO'd.  He was okay with it, and found another one to use while he checked out his new glider.  The next week he took off to find that the empennage was misrigged, with no pitch control, and he died.  If I had signed off on that rig, I should have been burned for doing so.

As it is, every time someone has pulled silver on a rig that I inspected and repacked, it worked just as advertised.  I don't drink, so 6 bottles of top shelf booze have gone to the common good.