Ethanol subsidies are a scam

[brenthutch 444]

https://www.aei.org/economics/quotation-of-the-day-on-ethanol-one-of-the-great-political-boondoggles-of-our-time-and-its-dangerous-and-delusional/

[Phil1111 1,149]

Is the whole world a giant scam for you?

[billvon 2,990]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

Is the whole world a giant scam for you?

No.  Just things that support individual rights for all, things that support pollution reduction, things that reduce cost for the poor, things that improve public transportation/communication/safety, things that provide better education and medical care for our youth, things that promote justice and things that provide clean, cheap energy.  You know, liberal stuff.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

Just now, Phil1111 said:

Is the whole world a giant scam for you?

Sheesh, Phil, he's not in on the scam and you are screwing with my bottom line. You'd never make it in the jumpin' biz.

[brenthutch 444]

11 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Is the whole world a giant scam for you?

No, why do you ask?

Edited June 22, 2024 by brenthutch

[brenthutch 444]

10 hours ago, billvon said:

No.  Just things that support individual rights for all, things that support pollution reduction, things that reduce cost for the poor, things that improve public transportation/communication/safety, things that provide better education and medical care for our youth, things that promote justice and things that provide clean, cheap energy.  You know, liberal stuff.

Off topic, let’s stay focused. Let me hear your thoughts on carbon credits and ethanol subsidies.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

53 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Off topic, let’s stay focused. Let me hear your thoughts on carbon credits and ethanol subsidies.

Well, it seems to me they have about the same intrinsic value as Bitcoins and their imitators, yet there is a viable market for those. What the hell, let's go back to paying with chickens and ducks, at least those you can eat, too.

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Well, it seems to me they have about the same intrinsic value as Bitcoins and their imitators, yet there is a viable market for those. What the hell, let's go back to paying with chickens and ducks, at least those you can eat, too.

Hi Joe,

Then, at least you know what you are getting.

Jerry Baumchen

[johnhking1 96]

Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel from corn and other crops is not worth the energy.  

• corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
• switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and
• wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that:

• soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and
• sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In addition, your car will get nearly the same MPG with 9 gallons of gas without ethanol as 10 gallons of gas with 10% ethanol. the only advantage of ethanol is that it is an octane booster but I don't think the trade off is worth it.

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/07/ethanol-biodiesel-corn-and-other-crops-not-worth-energy

[brenthutch 444]

8 minutes ago, johnhking1 said:

Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel from corn and other crops is not worth the energy.  

• corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
• switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and
• wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that:

• soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and
• sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In addition, your car will get nearly the same MPG with 9 gallons of gas without ethanol as 10 gallons of gas with 10% ethanol. the only advantage of ethanol is that it is an octane booster but I don't think the trade off is worth it.

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/07/ethanol-biodiesel-corn-and-other-crops-not-worth-energy

Yet another scam in the name of “saving the planet”

[normiss 798]

Brent posts are a scam, and so is the blocking feature here. 

[brenthutch 444]

34 minutes ago, normiss said:

Brent posts are a scam, and so is the blocking feature here. 

Thank you Normiss for your substantive and thoughtful contribution to the discussion 

[gowlerk 2,190]

1 hour ago, normiss said:

Brent posts are a scam, and so is the blocking feature here. 

Occasionally I click on the option to view his posts. But not often because I feel so unclean afterwards.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

Just now, gowlerk said:

Occasionally I click on the option to view his posts. But not often because I feel so unclean afterwards.

It's stunning how some folks here get so twitterpated over a Pennsylvania house dad who seems desperately short on topics to discuss. There are some fried brain posters here that need blocking, and more, but I just don't think Brent so qualifies. This is a low participation backwoods blog not a peer reviewed publication so who cares if Brent sings the same song every day?  

[gowlerk 2,190]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

This is a low participation backwoods blog not a peer reviewed publication so who cares if Brent sings the same song every day?  

There is some truth there. But for me it just gets really tiresome. It’s not just the constant untruths, but the attitude that not always but often can be so disrespectful.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

Just now, gowlerk said:

There is some truth there. But for me it just gets really tiresome. It’s not just the constant untruths, but the attitude that not always but often can be so disrespectful.

For comfort, just imagine a day without a Brent, to paraphrase. He is probably responsible for a lot of the content here. That has some value, no?

[gowlerk 2,190]

7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

For comfort, just imagine a day without a Brent, to paraphrase. He is probably responsible for a lot of the content here. That has some value, no?

It is true that he increases the overall participation rate.

Edited June 23, 2024 by gowlerk

[headoverheels 333]

21 hours ago, johnhking1 said:

 

In addition, your car will get nearly the same MPG with 9 gallons of gas without ethanol as 10 gallons of gas with 10% ethanol. the only advantage of ethanol is that it is an octane booster but I don't think the trade off is worth it.

MPG is miles per gallon. 

Perhaps you mean miles?  If so, that would mean that the ethanol has zero energy.   It does have about 1/3 less per gallon than gasoline, but that results in closer to 3% reduction in MPG with 10% ethanol in the gas.

I wonder whether the production efficiency has improved at all since that 2005 article.   I seem to remember (from ~ a decade ago) that it had improved a bit, but still ethanol still required more input energy that the output energy obtained.  If that energy is coming from fossil fuels, we are producing more CO2 while producing less net energy.

[brenthutch 444]

21 minutes ago, headoverheels said:

we are producing more CO2 while producing less net energy.

Which is pretty much par for the course for most “green” energy schemes.

Edited June 23, 2024 by brenthutch

[tkhayes 348]

22 hours ago, johnhking1 said:

Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel from corn and other crops is not worth the energy.  

• corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
• switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and
• wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that:

• soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and
• sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In addition, your car will get nearly the same MPG with 9 gallons of gas without ethanol as 10 gallons of gas with 10% ethanol. the only advantage of ethanol is that it is an octane booster but I don't think the trade off is worth it.

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/07/ethanol-biodiesel-corn-and-other-crops-not-worth-energy

corn is not primarily grown for fuel production.  40% of it is.  But the short answer is that it is not a scam, but it is really bad policy that meant well, didn't work and now that they have a huge lobbying industry backing it for money, so it continues.

american capitalism and cronyism at its finest.

 

Edited June 23, 2024 by tkhayes
typo'd

[brenthutch 444]

53 minutes ago, tkhayes said:

corn is not primarily grown for fuel production.  40% of it is.  But the short answer is that it is not a scam, but it is really bad policy that meant well, didn't work and now that they have a huge lobbying industry backing it for money, so it continues.

american capitalism and cronyism at its finest.

 

Sounds like the EV, solar, biofuel, wind and geothermal industries. Let’s call them a boondoggle instead.

[wmw999 2,444]

59 minutes ago, tkhayes said:

corn is not primarily grown for fuel production.  40% of it is.  But the short answer is that it is not a scam, but it is really bad policy that meant well, didn't work and now that they have a huge lobbying industry backing it for money, so it continues.

american capitalism and cronyism at its finest.

This. There have been plenty of ideas that were superseded by either better ones, or simply recognition that they never were that good in the first place. Just that now we have weaponized capitalism, lobbying, and politics.

Wendy P. 

[brenthutch 444]

20 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

This. There have been plenty of ideas that were superseded by either better ones, or simply recognition that they never were that good in the first place. Just that now we have weaponized capitalism, lobbying, and politics.

Wendy P. 

The only reason corn ethanol is even a thing is because the first shot of the presidential campaign is fired in Iowa. It was never a good idea to burn three gallons of diesel to get one gallon of ethanol. Of course this wasteful boondogglery can always be justified in the name of “saving the planet” much like most of the green initiatives we are wasting billions on.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

The only reason corn ethanol is even a thing is because the first shot of the presidential campaign is fired in Iowa. It was never a good idea to burn three gallons of diesel to get one gallon of ethanol. Of course this wasteful boondogglery can always be justified in the name of “saving the planet” much like most of the green initiatives we are wasting billions on.

The latest extension of this pork also had GOP support. They don't sell it as “saving the planet”.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Phil1111

[brenthutch 444]

5 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

The latest extension of this pork also had GOP support. They don't sell it as “saving the planet”.

No they sell it as winning the Iowa caucuses, which is ironic as the last candidate who won a contested Iowa caucus was Ted Cruz who was against this pork. Yet another example of how stupid they can be.