Stunts; pissing on our sport to make money.

[skypuppy 1]

There are probably at least 100 chuteless jumps over the past 3 decades

Rod Pack - 1
Jimmy Tyler - 2
Bill Cole - 2
French guy - 3 or 4, from what I heard definately less then 10
Andi (Germanguy) - 1?
Travis - 1
Greg Gasson - 0 (he wore a wire)

Total - between 10 and 17

A far cry from 100

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[billvon 2,991]

> Ummm wasn't it just a couple years ago that 200 jumps got you a D
>License and meant you was an expert? Wasn't 200 a pretty big deal? 250
> jumps is quite a lot or have you all forgotten that?

No, the level that 200 jumps represents is not a big deal today, even though it was a big deal back then. Why? Because the high performance canopy in 1985 was a PD170. Because "freak flying" was on your back. Because being an instructor meant being able to hook up a SL and stay sorta near a student in freefall (once he got to freefall, that is.) Because wingsuiting was something that no one ever did. Because a "bigway" was 8 people.

Things are a little different today.

>I think some of you have got on this jump number kit because you where
>so vocal about jump numbers in the incident threads and now you HAVE to
>tow the line. Well 250 jumps is NOT 100 and 250 jumps for a proffessional
>stuntman with over 100 BASE jumps is well A FRIGGEN LOT.

The last guy who thought something like that is now dead.

[DSE 5]

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A far cry from 100

yup...between Jan's post, your post, and a coupla PM's, kinda figured that I'm misinformed (by one of the people on your list).

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

It's comical to randomly search thru the "Stunt Junkies" threads to read how many cheer these sorts of stunts, but this one isn't acceptable.
Regardless of what his quals are or are not, he could have done this with 10K skydives under his belt, and there would be cheering and jeering. If the stunt is positively received by his fans, you can bet he'll be planning some other parachute-related stunt, regardless of what the skydiving community thinks of it.
There will always be that one guy that sees the Irons brothers, Robby Knievel, Bob Burnquist (who took AFF with Travis and Kenny "The Cowboy" Bartram), Matt Hoffman, Dew Sports Tour, or JackAss 1/2, and want to perform those same stunts. Then there are those that see it for what it is; a stunt. Their interest in the sport that spawned the stunt may be piqued. I don't think that's a bad thing.

[diablopilot 2]

Most of the Stunt Junkies episodes didn't involve busting FAR's or low time jumpers.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skypuppy 1]

It's because the stunt has been done so few times that makes it worth doing again. (piece of irrelevant trivia - I recently wrote a short story about a chuteless jump - a murder mystery - that won second place in a mystery writing competition up here. the story was called 'The Greatest Stunt Ever')

As Bill Cole told me several times he tried hard to have CSPA create a 'second' set of bsr's (or essentially a clause saying regulations could be waived in the case of professional 'stunts') so that he wouldn't have to break them during his work.

They weren't interested, but for what it's worth, these stunts are usually done so rarely and are so choreographed by professionals, that things rarely go wrong. It's the dropzone yo-yo's doing it only to impress themselves and their friends (or the girls lining the runway) who tend to kill themselves, not the professionals earning a living.

Sounds like with the rodeo entry and the climbing harness, Travis found a way to make an old stunt new.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[catfishhunter 2]

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> Ummm wasn't it just a couple years ago that 200 jumps got you a D
>License and meant you was an expert? Wasn't 200 a pretty big deal? 250
> jumps is quite a lot or have you all forgotten that?

No, the level that 200 jumps represents is not a big deal today, even though it was a big deal back then. Why? Because the high performance canopy in 1985 was a PD170. Because "freak flying" was on your back. Because being an instructor meant being able to hook up a SL and stay sorta near a student in freefall (once he got to freefall, that is.) Because wingsuiting was something that no one ever did. Because a "bigway" was 8 people.

Things are a little different today.

>I think some of you have got on this jump number kit because you where
>so vocal about jump numbers in the incident threads and now you HAVE to
>tow the line. Well 250 jumps is NOT 100 and 250 jumps for a proffessional
>stuntman with over 100 BASE jumps is well A FRIGGEN LOT.

The last guy who thought something like that is now dead.

Apples and Oranges. Race was not a Proffessional Stuntman. And that is my point your using the same Logic you used in his death and that logic is flawed when applied to this STUNT. Flying a wingsuit at 100 jumps and a handful of base jumps or extensivly planning and and practicing a stunt with VERY qualified people and a proffessional stunman with 250 skydives and 100 base jumps are NOT the same and you CANNOT use the same logic. And that is where your arguement loses credibillity. I do understand the jump number issue but it does not apply here and trying to pound your square peg into a round hole just doesn't work.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[chuteless 1]

If a guy has 200 - 250 jumps and can't do a plain old hook-up with another jumper he should take up another sport.

I think I had 430+ when I did my first chuteless,(in 1969) and I can't recall how many in 1972 when I made my 2nd.

The most interesting thing about making the 1st chuteless jump ( for me) was the reaction of people who knew me...either in jump circles, or even when I was going to school ( which I left in 1948)

People had a wide range of reaction to doing the jump, an some where downright hostile, and others were extremely far out, like the woman who said I was "daring God". (figure that one out). The hostility came mostly from CSPA types.

As in Travis' case, there is a wide range of reaction, from those who might like to do a chuteless jump...but won't, and those who wouldnt under any circumstances.

That is what makes the world go around.

As for breaking rules, FAR, etc....I consider it "bending them" a bit...nothing more, and if there was any consequences, I accepted that possibility.

The chuteless jump is a psychological jump...and nothing but a two man hookup.

Bill Cole

I checked the numbers: #1 was 436, and #2 was 551.

[skybytch 273]

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I said one of the few and most basic FAA regulations was broken...

Ever bust a cloud? Jump with an out of date reserve?

[tdog 0]

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I said one of the few and most basic FAA regulations was broken...

Ever bust a cloud? Jump with an out of date reserve?

Did I do it for money? Did I publish it in movies? Did I ask the FAA before hand and do it even when they told me it was a bad idea?

[skybytch 273]

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Did I do it for money? Did I publish it in movies? Did I ask the FAA before hand and do it even when they told me it was a bad idea?

An FAR is an FAR. Why is busting an FAR so you can have fun more ethical than busting an FAR so you can make money?

[Millstone 4]

" trying to pound your square peg into a round hole just doesn't work. "

This is exactly it. These guys have their own agenda. They have big jump numbers and want us to know what marvelous skydivers
they are compared to people they don't even know.
Mr Von and Mr. Diablo de EGO grande inadvertantly show us all why jump numbers do not mean squat. Arrogance and self importance are potentially just as dangerous as one with low jump numbers. They would like to blame low jump numbers for a poor guy going in in Utah even though they have no indication whatsoever that is true. It is quite possible the guy was a better wingsuit pilot than either one of them. Aging, arrogant guys with 4000 tandem jumps are quite possibly much more dangerous than world class athletes in their prime who live in the real world and know how to take advice from others. Being a world class athlete may not cross over to wing suit flights and highly coordinated stunts, but then again neither do tandem jumps and aff level 1s. Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. Don't believe me? just wait for their response.

[yarak 0]

bravo!!!!!!!!

I was just thinking how selfrighteous Diablo sounded.
Why would he respond to my post like that? For your information Diablo I have seen people die and I have taught people to skydive. It doesnt have any bearing on my opinion of this stunt. I believe people are responsible for their own actions. If he wants to jump without a rig, then so be it. Is it stupid? Well yeah. At 250 jumps, im sure he is well arware of the dangers involved and the consequences. But it is still his life and his decision.

I still cant figure out what seeing people die and teaching people to skydive has to do with this stunt? People die everyday.....thats the price we pay for living. Now get over it and stop thinking your are special, because you aren't

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[tdog 0]

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An FAR is an FAR. Why is busting an FAR so you can have fun more ethical than busting as FAR so you can make money?

Because ethics and laws in a self-regulating society are not the same thing.

Ethically I believe I have a responsibility to insure you, and others continue to skydive with the least government regulation, in perpetuity.

To do that, I need to follow certain procedures, including not PUBLICALLY ADVERTISING laws being broken. My first post was not about money, it is about busting laws publicly.

In the article in a related sport where laws are sometimes broken:
http://www.basejumper.com/Articles/Philosophy/Ethical_Philosophy_696.html

It says very clearly what I am trying to say:

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A note on legality: BASE ethics are not necessarily related to legality. It is obviously possible to make an illegal jump which is, by BASE standards, perfectly ethical. It is also possible to make a legal jump which is not, by BASE standards, ethical. The two systems (ethics and legality) operate independently.

The story that comes to mind... The famous "Tar and Feather". For those who don't know - here is the short version of the urban legend... A community of BASE jumpers jump a crane often. The crane operator leaves crane unlocked in exchange for beer. A single BASE jumper jumps it without seeking assistance from the community, and video tapes his jump, and sends it to the TV stations. The site is burned and the crane operator loses his job. The BASE community finds the jumper, ties him up (with a free hand so he can undo himself after they leave) and cover him in tar and feathers, and while doing so, say, "this is for getting the guy fired."

The BASE jumpers were not as worried about THEIR ability to jump, but getting revenge for the CRANE OPERATOR who lost his job...

When you publicly advertise FARs being broken, you are starting to enter the area where pilots lose jobs, FAA guys get egg on their face to their superiors, and skydiving in general can get burned...

So my point remains: "If you are going to bust a law - do so in a way that is ethical to the community and does not endanger my ability to continue to jump."

Not about money. Not about publicity. About ethics...

[diablopilot 2]

I'm not special, but I am going to take issue when someone with little experience calls my credibility into question.

I DO have the experience to back up the informed opinions I have.

DO you?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,991]

>Apples and Oranges. Race was not a Proffessional Stuntman.

No argument there. But the people defending Race used EXACTLY the same rationale you are using. He was a ski jumper! He knew how to fly! He was an extreme guy with fast reflexes! The rules certainly don't apply to HIM.

Now you have a reason why rules shouldn't apply to stuntmen. Next week it will be that rules shouldn't apply to NASCAR drivers because they are professionals and go faster than skydivers. But you know what? The ground doesn't care how many stunts you have done or how fast you drive. It will kill you just as dead no matter how extreme you are.

>trying to pound your square peg into a round hole just doesn't work.

And trying to justify why the rules/guidelines should apply to everyone else and not you has depressingly similar results.

[skybytch 273]

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It says very clearly what I am trying to say:

Quote

A note on legality: BASE ethics are not necessarily related to legality. It is obviously possible to make an illegal jump which is, by BASE standards, perfectly ethical. It is also possible to make a legal jump which is not, by BASE standards, ethical. The two systems (ethics and legality) operate independently.

Fixed object jumping and skydiving are two different animals. The laws that might be broken on a fixed object jump were not written with the jumper's safety in mind. The FAR's were written with the safety of everyone who uses the airspace in mind. The laws that might be broken on a fixed object jump were not written in blood; most of the FAR's were written in blood.

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"If you are going to bust a law - do so in a way that is ethical to the community and does not endanger my ability to continue to jump."

My point is that most all of us have, intentionally or unintentionally, broken an FAR at some point. Had shit happened on the jump when we did it, the ability of other skydivers to keep jumping - even if only at that dz - could have been endangered. The way I see it, that makes breaking an FAR on any skydive unethical by your description - whether the video/stills of the jump are made public or not.

And on another point -

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If USPA rules were broken, I would not care, because they can't do anything other than take my ratings.

That's a great example to set for your students.

[ficus 0]

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I'm not special, but I am going to take issue when someone with little experience calls my credibility into question.

I DO have the experience to back up the informed opinions I have.

DO you?

JP,

Most of your argument so far in this thread has been an appeal to authority. I'd say Bill Cole has the trump card in that suit, as far as this discussion is concerned.

I am curious to read your comments on his post.

[TheGerman 0]

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There are probably at least 100 chuteless jumps over the past 3 decades

Rod Pack - 1
Jimmy Tyler - 2
Bill Cole - 2
French guy - 3 or 4, from what I heard definately less then 10
Andi (Germanguy) - 1?
Travis - 1
Greg Gasson - 0 (he wore a wire)

Total - between 10 and 17

A far cry from 100

Why a questionmark behind my name??? Watch

http://www.spymac.com/details/?1849503

My chuteless jump is the only one with a video on the net at the moment.

Andi Dachtler
www.cirocom.de
www.xx-stunts.de

[diablopilot 2]

I cannot deffend Bill for breaking the rules. He did, and I can understand why the CSPA distanced themselves from him for protective reasons.

It is my impression however that Bill had a heck of alot more experience as a skydiver at the time. Add to that, Bill did his stunt in a time where to be a skydiver of any skill, one had to be much more involved with the sport than today, and in the process become both more knowlageable and skilled than required today.

In short, there were no "part time" skydivers.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[yeyo 1]

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Why a questionmark behind my name???

I understand he was asking if you made more than 1 jump...

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[skypuppy 1]

Why a questionmark behind my name??? Watch

http://www.spymac.com/details/?1849503

My chuteless jump is the only one with a video on the net at the moment.

Andi Dachtler
www.cirocom.de
www.xx-stunts.de
_______________________________________________

Andi

Not trying to question if you had done the jump, the question mark was because I wasn't sure if you had done more than 1 chuteless jump. Thought it possible you might have done 2 or even three, but wasn't sure.

I was talking to Bill the same time you were before you did the stunt.

Skypuppy

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[TheGerman 0]

OK, I understand. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No, I have not done more than one. Not yet.

[tdog 0]

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Fixed object jumping and skydiving are two different animals. The laws that might be broken on a fixed object jump were not written with the jumper's safety in mind.

I disagree... In the ethics I am pointing out - jumper and general public safety is probably the number one goal, followed by our ability to continue to skydive.

I will gladly bust an FAR in a split second decsion for the purpose of safety, if need be. If I intentionally and optionally bust an FAR, I need to understand and mitigate the risks and do it in a calculated way.

But, this is branching out away from the sub-section of this ethical mindset I have that I tried to address in this post.

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In Reply To
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If USPA rules were broken, I would not care, because they can't do anything other than take my ratings.

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That's a great example to set for your students.

I think I set a good example that safety first with my students and explain that the USPA cannot do anything except make recommendations that we must and should follow at group member DZs, whereas the government sets laws we must follow anywhere we go. Out of context, my comment sounds reckless. If you meet me in person, you will see that I am more conservative than a lot of people and respect the USPA's BSRs, especially in front of students when I am working.


Also, in front of students I never even discuss breaking the rules until I know them well and can have a discussion about the bigger picture ethics and politics in our sport. By then, they are probably not students but friends, and I expect them to make their own decisions.

[yarak 0]

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I'm not special, but I am going to take issue when someone with little experience calls my credibility into question.

I DO have the experience to back up the informed opinions I have.

DO you?


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I have enough experience to have the informed opinion that this is a waste of time. You cant stay focused on the matter at hand because your ego needs promoting

later hippies

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[chuteless 1]

One thing I would like to say about doing a chuteless jump, and I have given this many times as a main reason for doing my 1st one .

If one stops to consider that since man first walked on this earth, they have always had a strong desire to fly as they saw the birds doing it.

In the late 1700s, man built a balloon and the they said: "Now men are flying like the birds"

Not until 1903, did the Wright Bros build an airplane with a motor to get them up in the air,and then they said:

Now we are able to fly like the birds.

Then they built a glider, and left the engine off, rising on thermals and then they said: "Now we are flying like birds....soaring like an eagle"

Then they started to jump from airplanes with a parachute on their back, and they flew to another jumper and said : "Now we are flying like the birds"

Well, in doing a chuteless jump, man has been able to fly a directional flight, without plane, without wings, without a motor, and then they said, NOW a man has flown like the birds, in a directional flight, albeit, to pick up some landing gear, but it was just a man, using his arms and legs, and flying like the birds, without any other device.

That, to me, is the act of flight...which is what man has always wanted to do since day one.

The thrill of life is taking part in the ultimate thrills life can offer.

Bill Cole