foam padding deteriorating

[feuergnom 28]

I have a vortex II thats been sitting for quite a while now that i want to sell - but the foam padding in the back is heavily deteriorating. Vacuuming didn't help, nor blowing it out with high pressure air. any time you put it on you are full with crumbly, sticky particles. any thoughts how to solve this other than trashing it?

[riggerrob 643]

To remove the foam, you need to remove the binding tape from one edge and vacuum out the deteriorated foam. Then you need a master rigger to sew it back together. Best to get the same rigger to do the disassembly. It is a complex sewing task best left to riggers with many years of factory sewing experience.

[Deyan 36]

On 7/21/2024 at 4:11 AM, riggerrob said:

To remove the foam, you need to remove the binding tape from one edge and vacuum out the deteriorated foam. Then you need a master rigger to sew it back together. Best to get the same rigger to do the disassembly. It is a complex sewing task best left to riggers with many years of factory sewing experience.

Rob,

What he is referring to is the comfort padding a.k.a Spacer foam is falling apart. I've seen it a few times only on Vortex rigs. Removing that will be equal to rebuilding the rig, which is economically not worth doing.

To the OP, there's nothing you can do. Jump it as it is and wash your suit frequently, or burn it. It's just a Vortex.

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

4 minutes ago, Deyan said:

Rob,

What he is referring to is the comfort padding a.k.a Spacer foam is falling apart. I've seen it a few times only on Vortex rigs. Removing that will be equal to rebuilding the rig, which is economically not worth doing.

To the OP, there's nothing you can do. Jump it as it is and wash your suit frequently, or burn it. It's just a Vortex.

Hi Deyan,

This brings up the question:  Just how long should a rig last?

So what do the masses think?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  'Just how long should a rig last?' could be either time or number of jumps; I'm easy to please.

 

[gowlerk 2,190]

10 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Deyan,

This brings up the question:  Just how long should a rig last?

So what do the masses think?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  'Just how long should a rig last?' could be either time or number of jumps; I'm easy to please.

 

A harness container system? Many thousands of jumps or until it is too obsolete. Very hard to pin down. But the oldest ones I see still getting at least occasional regular use are from the early '90s. 

Edited July 31, 2024 by gowlerk

[Deyan 36]

16 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Deyan,

This brings up the question:  Just how long should a rig last?

So what do the masses think?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  'Just how long should a rig last?' could be either time or number of jumps; I'm easy to please.

 

In the original state that came from the manufacturer?! Probably no more than 500 jumps. After you start replacing stuff, I've seen one with 5500 jumps in 15 years! And to be completely honest, probably the TSO label was the only part that was made at the factory :)  ..... Just like the broom from the video above 

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

18 minutes ago, Deyan said:

In the original state that came from the manufacturer?! Probably no more than 500 jumps. After you start replacing stuff, I've seen one with 5500 jumps in 15 years! And to be completely honest, probably the TSO label was the only part that was made at the factory :)  ..... Just like the broom from the video above 

Hi Deyan,

That reminds me of when Sunpath/Javelin was demo'ing their SkyHook at a Symposium.  Dave Singer was doing the packing & Derek Thomas was doing the narrating.  Someone asked about how much to fit the SkyHook to an older Jav.  Derek said $XXXX & send it in.  The $XXXX was the price of a new Jav.

Jerry Baumchen

[riggerrob 643]

The Europeans set a 20 year life for skydiving equipment. If used on a regular basis, that is about the service life of most skydiving equipment. Various manufacturers have set lives of skydiving equipment.

Performance Designs said that their reserves are only good for 20 deployments or 40 repacks.

Strong Enterprises said that their first-generation Dual Hawk Tandems were only good for 8 years or 20-25 reserve deployments. Those limits were imllace for two reasons. First they wanted to get the first-generation back to the factory for a variety of updates. Before you criticize Strong too loudly, remember that everyone’s first-generation is crude. Secondly, first-generation String tandem mains - made of F-111 fabric only lasted 800 to 1,000 jumps in the salty Southern California desert. If you made less than 800 jumps during an 8 year period, you were in the wrong business.

These life limits get confusing when you jump at a DZ that is only open 6 months out of the year … say Wisconsin. There a rig might only make 50 or 150 jumps per year and still be airworthy more than 20 years after manufacture.

Closet Queens can really complicate the equation when junior riggers cannot find all the Service Bulletins that were published before the inter-net became available to the masses circa 1995.

[Deyan 36]

5 hours ago, riggerrob said:

The Europeans set a 20 year life for skydiving equipment. 

Although there are a few countries in Europe with that 20 years lifetime of the gear, majorly of countries doesn't have limitations. And because EASA doesn't want regulate skydiving gear (and rightfully so) every country has it's own rules. So pretty much everything you say after "the Europeans" in regards to skydiving gear, will be incorrect.

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

On 7/31/2024 at 2:23 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Deyan,

This brings up the question:  Just how long should a rig last?

So what do the masses think?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  'Just how long should a rig last?' could be either time or number of jumps; I'm easy to please.

 

Hi folks,

Not one responder has actually answered that question.

Jerry Baumchen

[wmw999 2,442]

10 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

Not one responder has actually answered that question.

Jerry Baumchen

Because, well, the answer is “it depends.”

Wendy P. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

Because, well, the answer is “it depends.”

Wendy P. 

Hi Wendy,

I disagree.  The question has to do with expectations.

'It depends' on so much, it would a very long list.

Jerry Baumchen

[gowlerk 2,190]

3 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

Not one responder has actually answered that question.

Jerry Baumchen

And neither have you.

[sfzombie13 324]

60 years.  a rig should last 50 years.  that means i have about 20 left on mine and at 54 that is about right for end of jumping for me and my gear to retire at the same(ish) time.  container anyway, the main is newer at 16. 

 

i am assuming you are talking about the container as the rig since everything else can be swapped out but nothing works without a container.  if you include canopies with the rig then it would be 35 years.  a rig with canopies should last 35 years. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

6 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

60 years.  a rig should last 50 years.  that means i have about 20 left on mine and at 54 that is about right for end of jumping for me and my gear to retire at the same(ish) time.  container anyway, the main is newer at 16. 

 

i am assuming you are talking about the container as the rig since everything else can be swapped out but nothing works without a container.  if you include canopies with the rig then it would be 35 years.  a rig with canopies should last 35 years. 

Hi 13,

I am talking about the entire sport rig.

And, thank you for the only on-point response so far.

IMO it should be 15 yrs/1500 jumps.  That assumes that it is not used in some harsh environment; as Rob Warner likes to talk about the desert sun & sand of Southern California.  I spent 13 months living in the desert sun & sand of Southern California, so I am familiar with that environment.  It is a LOT different than where I live at the northern end of the lush Willamette Valley.

It also means that the rig does not suffer some devastating incident; such as, being drug across a paved runway, etc.

Re:  And neither have you.

Fair enough, Ken.  See above.  Along with that 15 yrs/1500 jumps, I would expect that at each 500 jump increment, you would replace:

- the main risers

- the main pilot chute

- all of the lines on the main canopy

So, any other comments?

Jerry Baumchen

[wmw999 2,442]

Well, having regularly jumped, and had inspected, gear that was older than that, I'm not sure I do. I sold a rig in 2017 that had about 1500+ jumps over 15 years, that had been bought used in the first place; it was a 1997 Javelin. It was sent back to the factory, who checked it over and replaced some of the flaps. 

That's the "depends." I'm probably better than most at taking care of my gear, and have some understanding of it. Why the limits beyond individual inspection?

Wendy P.

[gowlerk 2,190]

2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

 

Fair enough, Ken.  See above.  Along with that 15 yrs/1500 jumps, I would expect that at each 500 jump increment, you would replace:

- the main risers

- the main pilot chute

- all of the lines on the main canopy

So, any other comments?

Jerry Baumchen

No one buys an entire rig. They buy pieces and have it assembled. The only thing I agree with you on is main line replacement. And even that has exceptions in both directions.

[Deyan 36]

2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

 Along with that 15 yrs/1500 jumps, I would expect that at each 500 jump increment, you would replace:

- the main risers

- the main pilot chute

- all of the lines on the main canopy

So, any other comments?

Jerry Baumchen

OK Jerry, I'll give you a very broad breakdown on what I would expect. Today I closed my 6000th reserve, so I consider myself experienced enough to have an opinion based on experience.

Let's have a look at a brand new H/C system, 9 cell ZP main, and a PDR. The system is going to be used in Central/Northern Europe and it won't be abused with bad landings, packed outside, jumped next to the sea etc.

around 200 jumps the kill line will need replacing

400-600 jumps a reline is expected. At the same time, a new PC and risers might be needed and maybe the chest strap will need to be replaced

700-800 jumps a new Dbag will probably be needed  and maybe new leg straps and kill line.

1000-1200 jumps second lineset and again maybe PC, risers and chest strap

1500-1600 jumps, the main will probably be done at this point and the overall condition of the harness will be to the point where the MLW and/or reserve risers will need replacing too.

If the harness is replaced, the cycle can continue. About 3000-4000 jumps is where the container will be worn out as well. And at that point you can sell it to a CReW jumper and they'll happily double that number! Just joking guys.... kinda.

So without too much maintenance, I'd say 1500-1600 jumps is the useful life of a rig. 80-100 jumps a year for the average jumper equals 15-20 years. In those 15-20 years if you pack the reserve every 6 months on the date, and have 2-3 reserve rides, you'll be very close to the reserve needing factory check, so that sums it up I guess.

I hope that answers you question.

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

9 minutes ago, Deyan said:

OK Jerry, I'll give you a very broad breakdown on what I would expect. Today I closed my 6000th reserve, so I consider myself experienced enough to have an opinion based on experience.

Let's have a look at a brand new H/C system, 9 cell ZP main, and a PDR. The system is going to be used in Central/Northern Europe and it won't be abused with bad landings, packed outside, jumped next to the sea etc.

around 200 jumps the kill line will need replacing

400-600 jumps a reline is expected. At the same time, a new PC and risers might be needed and maybe the chest strap will need to be replaced

700-800 jumps a new Dbag will probably be needed  and maybe new leg straps and kill line.

1000-1200 jumps second lineset and again maybe PC, risers and chest strap

1500-1600 jumps, the main will probably be done at this point and the overall condition of the harness will be to the point where the MLW and/or reserve risers will need replacing too.

If the harness is replaced, the cycle can continue. About 3000-4000 jumps is where the container will be worn out as well. And at that point you can sell it to a CReW jumper and they'll happily double that number! Just joking guys.... kinda.

So without too much maintenance, I'd say 1500-1600 jumps is the useful life of a rig. 80-100 jumps a year for the average jumper equals 15-20 years. In those 15-20 years if you pack the reserve every 6 months on the date, and have 2-3 reserve rides, you'll be very close to the reserve needing factory check, so that sums it up I guess.

I hope that answers you question.

 

Hi Deyan,

You are ONLY the 2nd person to actually answer the question.

Thank You!  A very well thought out response.

IMO everyone else [ except zombie13 ] has jumped around the actual question. *

Jerry Baumchen

*  If I asked 'everyone else' what time it is; they would probably answer, 'I woke up at 8:30 this morning.'

 

[Deyan 36]

10 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Deyan,

You are ONLY the 2nd person to actually answer the question.

Thank You!  A very well thought out response.

 

You are welcome! What I forgot to mention is that the average jumper spends 5-7 years in the sport which means that that rig will have 2-4 owners over its lifetime.

[riggerrob 643]

58 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

No one buys an entire rig. They buy pieces and have it assembled. The only thing I agree with you on is main line replacement. And even that has exceptions in both directions.

Ken,

You are talking about the market for used, second-hand gear.

OTOH I worked for major gear dealers (e.g. Square One) and factories at the peak of my rigging career.

Yes, PIA published a list of components that are supposed to be supplied by the harness/container manufacturer: pilot-chutes, bridles, d-bags, main risers, etc.

Half the time second-hand rigs are sold without all those components because they wore out. Sometimes those missing components were a blessing in disguise for junior jumpers as the last hassle they needed was sloppy openings

caused by a worn-out main pilot-chute.

Finding all the missing components and evaluating them for compatibility can be daunting for a junior rigger at the end of a long supply chain. Forget about a first-time buyer understanding the subtlety of whether main canopy "A" is compatible with container "B."

[sfzombie13 324]

17 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

And, thank you for the only on-point response so far.

you're welcome.  i figure since i jumped once last year and have yet to pick up my rig i left to be repacked in may, mine has about another 20 years left on it even though it was made in '97.  but then again most of the tiems have been replaced except the freebag and the dbag.  glad you asked that question as i hadn't given it much thought, but i did come to the conclusion that if i don't jump again pretty soon i'll just hang it up for good.  i would like to have gotten 200 before quitting to have made it to my d license.  and i know it's 500 now, but i'm talking about a d when i started jumping had i not stopped after the first year.  anyway, food for thought this weekend.  thanx and have a great weekend yourself.

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

7 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

you're welcome.  i figure since i jumped once last year and have yet to pick up my rig i left to be repacked in may, mine has about another 20 years left on it even though it was made in '97.  but then again most of the tiems have been replaced except the freebag and the dbag.  glad you asked that question as i hadn't given it much thought, but i did come to the conclusion that if i don't jump again pretty soon i'll just hang it up for good.  i would like to have gotten 200 before quitting to have made it to my d license.  and i know it's 500 now, but i'm talking about a d when i started jumping had i not stopped after the first year.  anyway, food for thought this weekend.  thanx and have a great weekend yourself.

Hi 13,

IMO always a good meal.

Jerry Baumchen

[feuergnom 28]

On 7/31/2024 at 11:16 PM, Deyan said:

 

To the OP, there's nothing you can do. Jump it as it is and wash your suit frequently, or burn it. It's just a Vortex.

that was my original line of thought, but I figured there might be an answer other that that...

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

On 8/2/2024 at 2:25 PM, riggerrob said:

Ken,

You are talking about the market for used, second-hand gear.

OTOH I worked for major gear dealers (e.g. Square One) and factories at the peak of my rigging career.

Yes, PIA published a list of components that are supposed to be supplied by the harness/container manufacturer: pilot-chutes, bridles, d-bags, main risers, etc.

Half the time second-hand rigs are sold without all those components because they wore out. Sometimes those missing components were a blessing in disguise for junior jumpers as the last hassle they needed was sloppy openings

caused by a worn-out main pilot-chute.

Finding all the missing components and evaluating them for compatibility can be daunting for a junior rigger at the end of a long supply chain. Forget about a first-time buyer understanding the subtlety of whether main canopy "A" is compatible with container "B."

Hi Rob,

Re:   I worked for major gear . . . factories at the peak of my rigging career.

In 1974, the TSO was issued for the WonderHog -> Vector 1 -> Vector 2 -> Vector 3.

I do not know of any other piece of gear that is still being built, sold & used under a certificate that is now 50 yrs old.

The Racer comes close at 49 yrs old.

IMO both are quite amazing accomplishments.

Jerry Baumchen