The Israeli Pager attack

[Phil1111 1,149]

Israel has attacked Hezbollah either killing or wounded over 1,000 Hezbollah members and leaders. They provided exploding pagers to the organization and sent out the termination of service notice today.

Iran's ambassador to Lebanon is reported to be among the wounded.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Phil1111

[ryoder 1,590]

To me the most surprising part was that someone still uses pagers!

[Phil1111 1,149]

50 minutes ago, ryoder said:

To me the most surprising part was that someone still uses pagers!

Likely because cell phones can be tracked and intercepted. Pagers have no transmission. Hezbollah probably used the old Osama Bin Laden training manual.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Israel has attacked Hezbollah either killing or wounded over 1,000 Hezbollah members and leaders. They provided exploding pagers to the organization and sent out the termination of service notice today.

Iran's ambassador to Lebanon is reported to be among the wounded.

So when Israel does it it's not terrorism? Imagine if Hezbollah pulled the same trick.

[Phil1111 1,149]

11 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

So when Israel does it it's not terrorism? Imagine if Hezbollah pulled the same trick.

I'll leave that up to the US state dept, as of Oct. 8, 1997 it was. US attacks  including the suicide truck bombings of the US Embassy in Beirut in April 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut in October 1983, and the US Embassy annex in Beirut in September 1984, as well as the hijacking of TWA 847 in 1985 and the Khobar Towers"

Edited September 17, 2024 by Phil1111

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

2 hours ago, ryoder said:

To me the most surprising part was that someone still uses pagers!

Hi Robert,

I don't think that they used them for very long.

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,720]

7 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Robert,

I don't think that they used them for very long.

Jerry Baumchen

Jerry,

I don't find any humor in this. If Israel is behind this, and it's only an if out of courtesy, they knowingly set off hundreds of small bombs designed to maim and kill understanding fully that innocents would be injured or killed in the operation. That is completely indefensible and by supporting Israel we, by extension, own a part of it. The United States needs to publicly condemn this act of indiscriminate terror and privately tell Israel they are now on a very short leash.

[gowlerk 2,190]

53 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

The United States needs to publicly condemn this act of indiscriminate terror and privately tell Israel they are now on a very short leash.

Be careful. What kind of devices are you using?

[nigel99 471]

10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

So when Israel does it it's not terrorism? Imagine if Hezbollah pulled the same trick.

I have mixed feelings about war crimes when fighting terrorists. Conventional warfare doesn’t really work. This seems like quite a targeted method to have limited innocent casualties. 

[JoeWeber 2,720]

8 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

I have mixed feelings about war crimes when fighting terrorists. Conventional warfare doesn’t really work. This seems like quite a targeted method to have limited innocent casualties. 

Negative. The point is that bombing a house and accepting that innocents might be killed is an appalling failing of humanity. That's Gaza. Now sending hundreds of bombs into another country to do that same is an horrific act of impersonal cruelty. The imposition of the state of Israel in the middle east has never been justifiable from a historical, not religious, perspective; no wonder the displaced residents are somewhat offended.  Seriously, what would you do? Would you be a partisan or a willing peon?

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Jerry,

I don't find any humor in this. If Israel is behind this, and it's only an if out of courtesy, they knowingly set off hundreds of small bombs designed to maim and kill understanding fully that innocents would be injured or killed in the operation. That is completely indefensible and by supporting Israel we, by extension, own a part of it. The United States needs to publicly condemn this act of indiscriminate terror and privately tell Israel they are now on a very short leash.

The pagers were distributed to a terrorist organization for the sole purpose of communicating orders of command, orders of war. The pages are not for innocent civilians to learn about what time supper is served. Civilians are using cell phones not taking command instructions to shoot rockets at civilians via pages. Not receiving pages to show up to build rockets or drive trucks into Syria to haul explosives.

It was a brilliant, targeted strike at an enemy combatant funded by Iran. Whose sole purpose is to support Iranian terrorist interests. Hezbollah has zero interest in helping the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank. If they did they would have done more with the 30,000 rockets that they have in Lebanon now. Taken more actions against Israel over the last eight months.

Instead they have listened to their Iranian masters biding their time till Iran has their nuclear weapons ready.

If you want to rationalize Israel terrorism upon the innocents and put them on a leash. Here it is: Seizing the West Bank: Extremist settlers in power - BBC World Service Documentaries Its a 59 minute BBC video and is reason alone for the US to cut funding and limit support to Israel.Its also very difficult to watch.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

5 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

The pagers were distributed to a terrorist organization for the sole purpose of communicating orders of command, orders of war. The pages are not for innocent civilians to learn about what time supper is served. Civilians are using cell phones not taking command instructions to shoot rockets at civilians via pages. Not receiving pages to show up to build rockets or drive trucks into Syria to haul explosives.

It was a brilliant, targeted strike at an enemy combatant funded by Iran. Whose sole purpose is to support Iranian terrorist interests. Hezbollah has zero interest in helping the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank. If they did they would have done more with the 30,000 rockets that they have in Lebanon now. Taken more actions against Israel over the last eight months.

Instead they have listened to their Iranian masters biding their time till Iran has their nuclear weapons ready.

If you want to rationalize Israel terrorism upon the innocents and put them on a leash. Here it is: Seizing the West Bank: Extremist settlers in power - BBC World Service Documentaries Its a 59 minute BBC video and is reason alone for the US to cut funding and limit support to Israel.Its also very difficult to watch.

Thanks for the schooling. I ask again: Seriously, what would you do? Would you be a partisan or a willing peon?

[Phil1111 1,149]

7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Negative. The point is that bombing a house and accepting that innocents might be killed is an appalling failing of humanity. That's Gaza. Now sending hundreds of bombs into another country to do that same is an horrific act of impersonal cruelty. ...

The pagers would not be carried by any civilians. The limited explosive power ensures that only the owner would likely to be injured. The limited explosive power would specifically limit injury to innocents.

10 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

... The imposition of the state of Israel in the middle east has never been justifiable from a historical, not religious, perspective; no wonder the displaced residents are somewhat offended.  Seriously, what would you do? Would you be a partisan or a willing peon?

The US government, both US political parties, the UN, the nuclear armed Israel state, most Arab countries, all the major western countries and the history of Jews dating back to about 1,000 B.C. disagree.

"Around 1000 B.C., King David ruled the Jewish people. His son Solomon built the first holy Temple in Jerusalem, which became the central place of worship for Jews. The kingdom fell apart around 931 B.C., and the Jewish people split into two groups: Israel in the North and Judah in the South"

[Phil1111 1,149]

28 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Thanks for the schooling. I ask again: Seriously, what would you do? Would you be a partisan or a willing peon?

Egypt and Jordan both made peace with Israel.Subsequently both have lived in peace with the Jewish state. Hezbollah and Hamas have both pledged to kill every Jew and destroy Israel without negotiation. Which is the aim of the Iranian Mullahs who fund and control both groups.

The absence of an independent voice willing peace for Palestinians is needed to achieve security for Palestinians. Independent voices willing to talk peace in the Gaza strip are killed by Hamas.

The Centre for Peace Communications Staff and Board of Directors Here. Has created a series of cartoons which is necessary to keep anonymity due to the treat of death by Hamas. Its entitled Whispered In Gaza Explanation here.

Where independent Gaza citizens talk about getting rid of Hamas and achieving peace:" Below from a WP article on the group and its voices from Gaza dated Oct. 20, 2023 or 13 days after the Hamas attack on Israel that led to the current war.

"If you doubt there are Palestinians who oppose the terrorist regime that Hamas has created, visit a project called “Whispered in Gaza” online. You’ll hear 25 powerful narratives that were recorded over the past 18 months. The Gazans’ names are changed and their faces drawn by animators, but their message has the unmistakable power of truth.

Here are some of those Gaza whispers: A pharmacist called “Basma” explains how she had to close her shop because of harassment by Hamas officials. A journalist called “Maha” says she was “muzzled” and threatened by Hamas and gave up her work. “Layla” describes how Hamas operatives forced her to close a counseling center because they were afraid it might encourage unhappy Gazans to protest the regime. “Othman” says bluntly: “The so-called ‘resistance’ has become a business.”

Edited September 18, 2024 by Phil1111

[JoeWeber 2,720]

24 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

The pagers would not be carried by any civilians. The limited explosive power ensures that only the owner would likely to be injured. The limited explosive power would specifically limit injury to innocents.

The US government, both US political parties, the UN, the nuclear armed Israel state, most Arab countries, all the major western countries and the history of Jews dating back to about 1,000 B.C. disagree.

"Around 1000 B.C., King David ruled the Jewish people. His son Solomon built the first holy Temple in Jerusalem, which became the central place of worship for Jews. The kingdom fell apart around 931 B.C., and the Jewish people split into two groups: Israel in the North and Judah in the South"

When Israel controlled the Sinai David Ben Gurion sent the Jewish School of Archeology out to find the title deeds of Israel. They came back empty handed. No wandering, no nothing. If you are happy letting some other government give camping rights in your backyard to people who hate you more power to you. But let's not be surprised when others take exception.

[Phil1111 1,149]

7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

When Israel controlled the Sinai David Ben Gurion sent the Jewish School of Archeology out to find the title deeds of Israel. They came back empty handed. No wandering, no nothing. If you are happy letting some other government give camping rights in your backyard to people who hate you more power to you. But let's not be surprised when others take exception.

Touche.When the Pilgrims landed in Massachusetts they never asked the local Indians for the deeds of the tribe. Now the US has nuclear weapons and Indians from coast to coast have......."Over 20% of Native American reservation households make less than $5,000 annually while only 6% of the overall US population has an annual income of less than $5,000.^[17] The average Native American family (3.41) is larger than the American national average,^[12] yet only 30% have health insurance.^[12] The quality of life for many Native Americans are often comparable to that of developing nations.^[17]"

 

[nigel99 471]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Negative. The point is that bombing a house and accepting that innocents might be killed is an appalling failing of humanity. That's Gaza. Now sending hundreds of bombs into another country to do that same is an horrific act of impersonal cruelty. The imposition of the state of Israel in the middle east has never been justifiable from a historical, not religious, perspective; no wonder the displaced residents are somewhat offended.  Seriously, what would you do? Would you be a partisan or a willing peon?

As I said I have mixed feelings. The sad reality is that there is a terrorist war in the Middle East, it would be ideal if there was the willingness on both sides for a peaceful resolution. Of course every violent attack intensifies the conflict and you could argue that a purely defensive stance is taking the moral high ground. 

From a moral point of view when fighting terrorists I support the use of highly targeted methods to minimise the capabilities of the terrorists. This appears at face value to be about as good as it can be to avoid innocent casualties. It has the risk that a child could have been playing with the pager at the time, but by the same token the west has carried out targeted strikes on houses of terrorists and accepts killing the entire family.

If I was in a situation of being under sustained attack by terrorists who were unwilling to use peaceful means, then to answer you, yes I would be a willing participant in using targeted means that aimed to minimise innocent casualties. 

[jakee 1,489]

2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

The pagers would not be carried by any civilians.

I admire your confidence.

”A. source close to the group told AFP news agency that the son of Hezbollah MP Ali Ammar and the 10-year-old daughter of a Hezbollah member in the Bekaa Valley were among those killed. Later, the source said the son of another lawmaker, Hassan Fadlallah, was wounded, having initially reported that he was dead.”

[jakee 1,489]

1 hour ago, nigel99 said:

 

If I was in a situation of being under sustained attack by terrorists who were unwilling to use peaceful means, then to answer you, yes I would be a willing participant in using targeted means that aimed to minimise innocent casualties. 

Palestinians in the West Bank are under sustained attack by Israeli terrorist settlers who are unwilling to be peaceful. So everything’s great and they’re both totally right to be fighting each other.

[tkhayes 348]

4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Jerry,

I don't find any humor in this. If Israel is behind this, and it's only an if out of courtesy, they knowingly set off hundreds of small bombs designed to maim and kill understanding fully that innocents would be injured or killed in the operation. That is completely indefensible and by supporting Israel we, by extension, own a part of it. The United States needs to publicly condemn this act of indiscriminate terror and privately tell Israel they are now on a very short leash.

it's war against terrorists so I do not actually give a fuck.  It is TOTALLY defensible.

[nigel99 471]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

Palestinians in the West Bank are under sustained attack by Israeli terrorist settlers who are unwilling to be peaceful. So everything’s great and they’re both totally right to be fighting each other.

As I said in the previous post 

“The sad reality is that there is a terrorist war in the Middle East, it would be ideal if there was the willingness on both sides for a peaceful resolution. Of course every violent attack intensifies the conflict and you could argue that a purely defensive stance is taking the moral high ground. ”

 

[kallend 2,026]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

I admire your confidence.

”A. source close to the group told AFP news agency that the son of Hezbollah MP Ali Ammar and the 10-year-old daughter of a Hezbollah member in the Bekaa Valley were among those killed. Later, the source said the son of another lawmaker, Hassan Fadlallah, was wounded, having initially reported that he was dead.”

Apparently the pagers were a bulk order by Hezbollah from Taiwan for its members, who had been told not to use cell phones for security reasons.  Really there's no reason to use a pager these days unless you are up to something where you don't want to be traced.

Hezbollah, a declared enemy of Israel that regularly fires rockets into civilian areas, is a legitimate target.  Not Israels's fault if terrorists give terrorist purchased pagers to their kids.

[tkhayes 348]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

Apparently the pagers were a bulk order by Hezbollah from Taiwan for its members, who had been told not to use cell phones for security reasons.  Really there's no reason to use a pager these days unless you are up to something where you don't want to be traced.

Hezbollah, a declared enemy of Israel that regularly fires rockets into civilian areas, is a legitimate target.  Not Israels's fault if terrorists give terrorist purchased pagers to their kids.

well that's kind of a weak argument - even I would understand something like "Well, if you have a problem with the police randomly searching your house, then you must be up to something.'

Society still does and should enjoy freedoms, including the ability to carry a pager

 

Hey did anyone notice that 30,000-40,000 children died from starvation today?  no I did not think so.  

[Phil1111 1,149]

7 hours ago, jakee said:

Palestinians in the West Bank are under sustained attack by Israeli terrorist settlers who are unwilling to be peaceful. So everything’s great and they’re both totally right to be fighting each other.

This is the reason why President Harris will and should bring a more balanced approach to Israel. What Kamala Harris really thinks about Israel and Gaza Article for VOX dated July 25, 2024

To date the US state department has sanctioned individual Israeli settlers involved in these attacks.Which is a total joke. The US needs to hold a press conference stating that Netanyahu is personally accountable for the safety of these Palestinian farmers. That all aid will be halted if this continues.

The real backbone to this problem is Iran. Iran is meddling in many Arab countries in the region and all the Arab countries are concerned.So they have aligned closer to Israel as a counter to Iran. At the same time toned down the support for Palestinians. Mostly because Hamas is the winner if they support the Palestinians.

Edited September 18, 2024 by Phil1111

[kallend 2,026]

1 hour ago, tkhayes said:

well that's kind of a weak argument - even I would understand something like "Well, if you have a problem with the police randomly searching your house, then you must be up to something.'

Society still does and should enjoy freedoms, including the ability to carry a pager

 

Hey did anyone notice that 30,000-40,000 children died from starvation today?  no I did not think so.  

Disagree.  These weren't random articles bought at the local Best Buy.  They were a bulk order by Hezbollah for its militia members to communicate.  Hezbollah is a militia at war with Israel and that regularly fires rockets at civilian targets in northern Israel.  As such, its communications equipment is a legitimate military target IMO.