The Israeli Pager attack

[gowlerk 2,249]

39 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Honestly, I really don't know why it seems so smarmy to me to take out enemies by blinding them and blowing off their fingers when arguably that's better treatment than killing them outright, it just does.

I would say it seems like that to you because it is a dirty trick. There is no two ways about it. It seems swarmy because it is easy to imagine how it would feel if it was done to you. It’s called empathy and normal people like you and I suffer from it.

Edited September 21, 2024 by gowlerk

[tkhayes 348]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Are you saying that you wouldn't draw the line anywhere? If not then where would you draw the line?

IMO, some wars do not have lines to draw, and certainly, unless you are one of the players in that war, then the concept of 'lines' in pretty meaningless.

These groups have been fighting for so long, there is NO solution to it until the parties involved decide they have had enough.

That could actually happen, like it did in Ireland, but at least for now, there is NO solution to the Israel/Arab conflict, and I try not to spend too much time trying to solve problems that have no solution.

Nor do I concern myself with any lines, ethics, or otherwise in the debate.

Edited September 21, 2024 by tkhayes

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Are you saying that you wouldn't draw the line anywhere? If not then where would you draw the line?

Hi Joe,

IMO there is a simple end to it:  The belligerent Arab states only have to recognize Israel's right to be a legal state in the region; and, then come to a peace agreement with them.

Egypt & Jordan did and the world did not come to an end.

How many missiles, that land at random, do you think Israel should accept per month without doing anything in retaliation?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  All of the allies in WW II would only accept unconditional surrender of Germany & Japan.  How's that for a line?

 

[JoeWeber 2,824]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Egypt & Jordan did and the world did not come to an end.

Could that have been possible because Egypt and Jordan were States; Nations with armies, economies, currencies and internationally recognized borders?

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

12 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Could that have been possible because Egypt and Jordan were States; Nations with armies, economies, currencies and internationally recognized borders?

Hi Joe,

That I do not know. 

However, here are some nations in the region:

Syria, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran

All of them could do it; if they wanted to end this.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[JoeWeber 2,824]

40 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

That I do not know. 

However, here are some nations in the region:

Syria, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran

All of them could do it; if they wanted to end this.

Jerry Baumchen

 

So as long as 7 Nations and one dispossessed people are willing to concede defeat on the issue one nation, the last to arrive, could have peace. There might be a bit of a wait on that.

[nigel99 568]

4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

No one has yet made the claim, best I can tell. Nigel was simply pondering about the ethics of the attack, a legitimate question I think. In my case if I firmly believed that making remote controlled bomblets out of 5000 pagers and handing them to bad guys who were blended into a civilian population for later detonation would be an effective first step to ending Hezbollah once and for all I suppose I'd think it was ethical maiming and that would include any bystanders. But I don't believe that's going to happen any time soon and I do believe it more likely that more terrorists will be the result. Honestly, I really don't know why it seems so smarmy to me to take out enemies by blinding them and blowing off their fingers when arguably that's better treatment than killing them outright, it just does.

Hey Joe,

Correct I was just reflecting on it. Maybe ethics wasn’t the best word to sum it up (although it’s a great discussion to have). I still hold my opinion that as far as war goes, this was a very clever strategy to try as far as possible to minimise casualties. Until the BBC article I hadn’t fully considered the psychological harm to innocent people in the community in a widespread scale.

By the way I like how Ken mentioned you having empathy, I agree with him. This discussion is what I really enjoy about speakers corner. Robust discussion with different points of view, no name calling and other silliness.

[airdvr 210]

Having watched this shitshow for a long time I’ve reached the conclusion that it’s never going to stop. Idiocy on both sides. 

[jakee 1,563]

1 minute ago, airdvr said:

Having watched this shitshow for a long time I’ve reached the conclusion that it’s never going to stop. Idiocy on both sides. 

Go back only 100 years and there's hardly a single place on the planet that you couldn't have said the same about. Including the places we now think of as the finest models of peaceful cooperation.

[wmw999 2,534]

34 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Having watched this shitshow for a long time I’ve reached the conclusion that it’s never going to stop. Idiocy on both sides. 

Yep. Idiot-proof something and they just invent a better idiot. That said, no one can make it perfect, but each of us can improve something in our community.

Wendy P. 

[nigel99 568]

6 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Yep. Idiot-proof something and they just invent a better idiot. That said, no one can make it perfect, but each of us can improve something in our community.

Wendy P. 

You mean idiot proof solutions get trumped?

[airdvr 210]

7 hours ago, jakee said:

Go back only 100 years and there's hardly a single place on the planet that you couldn't have said the same about. Including the places we now think of as the finest models of peaceful cooperation.

Point taken. But are those places still trading punches?

[jakee 1,563]

6 hours ago, airdvr said:

Point taken. But are those places still trading punches?

Umm…. Doesn’t sound like point taken.

The point is that some of those places aren’t trading punches anymore. If we did it, they could do it too under the right conditions. Unless you think there’s something fundamentally different about ‘those people’.

[kallend 2,106]

"In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." ;  Winston Churchill, also quoted by Harry Lime in The Third Man 

[gowlerk 2,249]

3 hours ago, kallend said:

"In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." ;  Winston Churchill, also quoted by Harry Lime in The Third Man 

Well...that and a per capita GDP of over 100,000 USD. Along with a banking system adept at concealing the wealth of other nations and really good chocolate.

Edited October 3, 2024 by gowlerk

[richravizza 28]

On 9/21/2024 at 3:55 PM, nigel99 said:

Hey Joe,

Correct I was just reflecting on it. Maybe ethics wasn’t the best word to sum it up (although it’s a great discussion to have). I still hold my opinion that as far as war goes, this was a very clever strategy to try as far as possible to minimise casualties. Until the BBC article I hadn’t fully considered the psychological harm to innocent people in the community in a widespread scale.

By the way I like how Ken mentioned you having empathy, I agree with him. This discussion is what I really enjoy about speakers corner. Robust discussion with different points of view, no name calling and other silliness.

Bravo Sir,  

  I admire your insight of Joe's empathy, also I'd like to highlight Jakee's knowledge of courage.In Exrocating herself from "the mass mind". I really enjoyed reading this thread too.

Phill... Likewise,  Bravo Sir!

 We may disagree on a lot,but this is a real mo=ment. I'll  buy you the preverbal,BEER! It's definitely the one thing we got. Right in your wheelhouse I assume; jabs and counters without any low blows, or ear biting. LOL I was mistaken in thinking there is no Mr.Hyde in you,damn I was wrong! You tore it apart,and you peaked my curiosity. Spending the last couple of days watching and reading your sources.Thanks.

 My opinion is "The Pager" operation was a masterpiece in all aspects of the operation. Successful, tactical, targeted and ethical. As for the innocent, I agree with Ken's assessment that everything was done to avoid innocent casualty. The PSYOP value was also noteworthy, a notice within their communities, who and what ideas you should distance yourself from. I think the empathetic take is highly sus.

  But a real (RIP) Tom Clancy moment for sure. An Interesting question arises for the detractors of Israel's pager actions. Use some imagination some fiction and come up with a lethal,yet more ethical operation? Tom could take some notes.lol

 Peace

 

Edited October 13, 2024 by richravizza

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, richravizza said:

...My opinion is "The Pager" operation was a masterpiece in all aspects of the operation. Successful, tactical, targeted and ethical. ....

 

Just the tip of the iceberg.

[riggerrob 643]

2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Just the tip of the iceberg.

That arrest could not have happened to a nicer person!

Hah!

Hah!

[Phil1111 1,149]

55 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

That arrest could not have happened to a nicer person!

Hah!

Hah!

Is he really an Israeli spy or is that a counterintelligence sting?

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

18 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Is he really an Israeli spy or is that a counterintelligence sting?

Hi Phil,

You should really ask Mossad.

Jerry Baumchen

[winsor 236]

43 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Phil,

You should really ask Mossad.

Jerry Baumchen

"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold" comes to mind, as does the scene where a detective walks up and hands cash to a gang member in front of his compatriots.

The most effective part of the exploding device activity is the uncertainty it instills in the opposition.

Snipers and land mines are largely psychological weapons. 

Having someone drop when there isn't a good hide within 600 meters tends to make the troops nervous, and having the commander drop from his horse before he can say "Charge! resulted in delaying the attack so they could break for lunch.

The Bouncing Betty is a castration mine - after seeing a compatriot lose testicles to one, getting a young soldier to cross into an area marked "MINEN!" is easier said than done.

When all is said and done, the goal is to get the attackers to stop attacking.  If that goal can be achieved peacefully, so much the better.  If seriously messing with their heads involves killing and maiming some of them (preferably the key individuals), that works too.

We've tried the peaceful approach and that didn't work well enough.  Maybe blowing up a few of them will buy us some slack, it's worth a shot.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[JoeWeber 2,824]

14 minutes ago, winsor said:

"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold" comes to mind, as does the scene where a detective walks up and hands cash to a gang member in front of his compatriots.

The most effective part of the exploding device activity is the uncertainty it instills in the opposition.

Snipers and land mines are largely psychological weapons. 

Having someone drop when there isn't a good hide within 600 meters tends to make the troops nervous, and having the commander drop from his horse before he can say "Charge! resulted in delaying the attack so they could break for lunch.

The Bouncing Betty is a castration mine - after seeing a compatriot lose testicles to one, getting a young soldier to cross into an area marked "MINEN!" is easier said than done.

When all is said and done, the goal is to get the attackers to stop attacking.  If that goal can be achieved peacefully, so much the better.  If seriously messing with their heads involves killing and maiming some of them (preferably the key individuals), that works too.

We've tried the peaceful approach and that didn't work well enough.  Maybe blowing up a few of them will buy us some slack, it's worth a shot.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

Negative. When you say slack you mean time. Time being the most valuable and least understood thing in war and our lives. Events happen at speeds outside of most folks ability to perceive what is occurring or what might be the effect.  That’s the problem.

[jaybird18c 24]

The pager/radio attack was an excellent warfare tactic!

[JoeWeber 2,824]

13 hours ago, jaybird18c said:

The pager/radio attack was an excellent warfare tactic!

Also a great strategy if Armageddon is your goal. People wonder why Christians love Trump and fear not the destruction of democracy, but it’s not a mystery. They already bow to a king so the idea of an authoritarian or autocracy or another prince or two in the middle is hardly an impediment to the desired end goal: the end of humanity. We atheists aren’t extremists like you regardless of your attempt at an analogy. We want it all to thrive and continue. You don’t.

[jaybird18c 24]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Also a great strategy if Armageddon is your goal.

What do you know about war?