SL Rig AAD debate

[cpoxon 0]

I'm moving this to safety and training, as SL student in tow, partial malfunctions and failure to be hooked up by the JM prior to exit have nothing to do with this incident.

t

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had a good 1st jump. Good enough to let her jump again.

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Tonto adds:

AAD's are NOT a requirement on direct bag deployed SL rigs in South Africa.

AAD's are required for all AFF dives, and all freefall progression jumps for those students on the SL program.

Do students in South Africa receive any instruction via radio whilst under canopy?

Whilst it has no bearing on this incident (so perhaps worthy of a Safety & Training thread), what is the thinking behind not requiring an AAD on d-bagged deployed SL rigs? If a student became hung-up and had to be cut away (you carry knives on board, right?) or they had a streamer, or, erm, there must be other situations, and they failed to respond an AAD would be a life-saver. Maybe this is pertinent to this thread, do instructors in South Africa consider themselves stricter when deciding whether someone should progress on static-line (perhaps even due to the lack of AAD requirement?)

BSBD

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[Tonto 1]

As for the radio question, the answer is no. Radio has been used sporadically in the past, but due to maintenance issues, and perhaps the fact that there are 11 official languages in South Africa, they have never really suceeded.

I'm not a Static Line instructor, and so I cannot answer your AAD question with any authority. I'm not a member of National Safety and Training (NSTO) and so can't speak on why the rules are what they are, but personally I think that all rental and student gear should be AAD equipped.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Beverly 1]

I am not sure of all the technicalities, but the student would need to cut away from a student hangup or streamer.
The rigs are all equipped with RSL's.

If the student had an AAD, this would get caught up in a half inflated canopy right?

They would need to be trained on the reserve drills properly. They are taught to pull right - cutaway on both those circumstances.
The RSL would deploy the reserve - They are told about this, but told not to rely on this and to follow through with the Pull Left. FULL RESERVE DRILLS

Are AAD's mandatory in other countries?

I think true friendship is under-rated

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[Yossarian 0]

in the case of a static line hangup i would have thought cutting away would do nothing, as your attached to the aircraft by the static line and not the lines/risers. normal procedure is for the instructor to cut your static line and you pull the reserve . if the student failed to do so then there would definately be a requirement for an aad.

[speedyhogan 0]

Cutting away from a hang-up should still release you if the bags out of the container, but it leaves all the "crap" with the aircraft, which is one reason the dispatcher cut you free.

Smile, Get It Over With

[NelKel 0]

in the case of a static line hangup i would have thought cutting away would do nothing, as your attached to the aircraft by the static line and not the lines/risers. normal procedure is for the instructor to cut your static line and you pull the reserve . if the student failed to do so then there would definately be a requirement for an aad. <<<<<<


Only if it was a container lock there would be "no risers or lines" for a student to "breakaway", if the container opened and the chute deploys it could hang on the PC assist, or direct bag and prevent the chute from inflation. It depends on which system is used. In either case I would think the Jumpmaster would cut the student in tow away. In this case I believe, I read it was a direct bag S/L jump.

In either case, an AAD probably would have not saved her from a spiral due to her releasing only one toggle. Probably the older FXC 1200 might have fired from the decent rate of the spin, but there would be no garentee that it wouldn't entangle with the Main in a spin.

IN the USA: RSL's and AAD's are required for student training jumps. (USPA- BSR's)

BSBD.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[SkyTango 0]

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In either case, an AAD probably would have not saved her from a spiral due to her releasing only one toggle. Probably the older FXC 1200 might have fired from the decent rate of the spin, but there would be no garentee that it wouldn't entangle with the Main in a spin.

Would a student cypres 2 have made a difference with its slower descent rate trigger parameters (descent exceeds 29 mph) or does that introduce to many new problems with normal canopy flight?

Airtec warning on Student CYPRES 2:

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Be aware that it is possible to exceed a vertical speed of 29 mph (13 meters per second) under a fully inflated canopy!

JC

[NelKel 0]

Would a student cypres 2 have made a difference with its slower descent rate trigger parameters (descent exceeds 29 mph) or does that introduce to many new problems with normal canopy flight?<<<



Man I can't say for sure. The fact that this jumper died may indicate she was travling at a fast rate. BUT there are a lot of "what ifs" that could have changed her survival chances.

From what I have read in this thread, I would conclude that if an AAD would have fired her reserve, and IF the reserve had deployed cleanly, the fact that her main was in a spin would lead to an entanglement, or a down plane.

The other side of it, could conclude if the student noticed a two out situation, she may have cutaway and landed safely under her reserve.

I just can't say for sure what chance an AAD would have played in the outcome, but I would speculate none.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[Orange1 0]

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in the case of a static line hangup i would have thought cutting away would do nothing, as your attached to the aircraft by the static line and not the lines/risers.

just answering as I trained SL in SA. We weren't taught different procedures for different situations - probably because overloading first jumpers with all these things is asking for trouble. we were taught in any emergency to do full EPs (arch, look, grasp handles, peel and pull right, pull left, arch). incidentally at least some of the SL rigs at the DZ i trained at have AADs, certainly the ones i jumped do, but I don't know whether all of them do or not.

NelKel:

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From what I have read in this thread, I would conclude that if an AAD would have fired her reserve, and IF the reserve had deployed cleanly, the fact that her main was in a spin would lead to an entanglement, or a down plane. The other side of it, could conclude if the student noticed a two out situation, she may have cutaway and landed safely under her reserve.

Agree with the first point. On the second... not sure. She was spinning, & assuming she was conscious she must have noticed that, and we were taught to cut away from a spin.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[riggerrob 643]

This thread reminds me a conversation with an instructor who used to work at Neatherhaven (sp?). At one point (a long time ago), they were having more (pre-Cypres) AAD mis-fires than main malfunctions, so they removed the AADs and went several years without any problems.
Mind you, they were using direct-bag, static-lines to deploy round canopies with anti-inversion nets .... the most reliable system ever.

[MooChooser 0]

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Whilst it has no bearing on this incident (so perhaps worthy of a Safety & Training thread), what is the thinking behind not requiring an AAD on d-bagged deployed SL rigs? If a student became hung-up and had to be cut away (you carry knives on board, right?) or they had a streamer, or, erm, there must be other situations, and they failed to respond an AAD would be a life-saver. Maybe this is pertinent to this thread, do instructors in South Africa consider themselves stricter when deciding whether someone should progress on static-line (perhaps even due to the lack of AAD requirement?)

Its the same deal at Chatteris with the rounds. I asked about why there arent AADs on the rounds and apparently its because aeroconicals never mal.
Doesnt help with the issue of cutting off an unconscious hang up though. Thats where the whole "instructor sliding down with a knife" scenario comes in I guess.