Lack of responsible leadership is killing skydivers

[davelepka 4]

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I feel very fortunate that I jump with a group that take the time and give back to the sport. I also to feel very fortunate that I had a great instructor and great mentors. I have only been in sport for a year and I feel as though the senior jumpers have shared a wealth of knowledge with me.

I'm not trying to discount your point, or make a judgement about the people you jump with.

Most jumpers feel this way. The issue here is not the experienced folks don't care about newbies, or that they don't share information. I've never been to a DZ where the staff and senior jumpers didn't watch out for and assist the newbies.

The issue is that the help it coming up short in the areas of canopy control amd selection. This isn't intentional, it just a situation thats developed over time.

Canopies have changed alot, while the training, and many attitudes have not. What we need to see the dissemination of accurate and complete knowledge, along with a unified front on the issue of proper canopy selection.

The changes to canopy design didn't happen by accident, they were intentional and deliberate. The changes to the community and culture need to also be intentional and deliberate. We have waited it out long enough, and the evolution of the training and attitudes just isn't keeping up with the changes in the canopies.

It's time to make a deliberate move toward getting jumpers ahead of the parachutes, not behind trying to play catch-up.

[popsjumper 2]

I feel for the AFFIs and other instructors who help the newbies quite a bit (newbies listen) but who find trying to help the more experienced jumpers gets to be frustrating because they oftentimes don't listen.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AFFI 0]

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I feel for the AFFIs and other instructors who help the newbies quite a bit (newbies listen) but who find trying to help the more experienced jumpers gets to be frustrating because they oftentimes don't listen.

Totally correct...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[davelepka 4]

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trying to help the more experienced jumpers gets to be frustrating because they oftentimes don't listen.

It's an inherent problem in the community. Personal status and value on the DZ is often tied into skill/experience/accomplishments.

Jumpers recall all to readily the days of student status, or brand-newbie-ness, and the aspiration to get out of that class, and be one of the 'cool kids'.

This explains alot about the rush to downsize, and swoop, as it's the most widely visible display of skill on the DZ. Only a select few will see your skill in freefall, but the whole DZ can watch your swoop. An example is a swooper I know who may be the best on the DZ. Others somehow inferred that he also posses similar freeflying skills, when is reality, he has little to no freeflying skills (dork).

The same theory can be applied to the resistance to listen to more experienced jumpers. Once beyond the brand-newbie status, jumpers are often reluctant to accept training/guidance/critisism, as it carries with it the implied need for said assistance. They're not students, and they don't need your help.

[Feeblemind 1]

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I feel very fortunate that I jump with a group that take the time and give back to the sport. I also to feel very fortunate that I had a great instructor and great mentors. I have only been in sport for a year and I feel as though the senior jumpers have shared a wealth of knowledge with me.

I'm not trying to discount your point, or make a judgement about the people you jump with.

Most jumpers feel this way. The issue here is not the experienced folks don't care about newbies, or that they don't share information. I've never been to a DZ where the staff and senior jumpers didn't watch out for and assist the newbies.

The issue is that the help it coming up short in the areas of canopy control amd selection. This isn't intentional, it just a situation thats developed over time.

Canopies have changed alot, while the training, and many attitudes have not. What we need to see the dissemination of accurate and complete knowledge, along with a unified front on the issue of proper canopy selection.

The changes to canopy design didn't happen by accident, they were intentional and deliberate. The changes to the community and culture need to also be intentional and deliberate. We have waited it out long enough, and the evolution of the training and attitudes just isn't keeping up with the changes in the canopies.

It's time to make a deliberate move toward getting jumpers ahead of the parachutes, not behind trying to play catch-up.

Well maybe the DZ's I jump at are the exception not the rule. Eddie, Pete, Scott, Chris, Kieth, Lisa, Jason, Colin, Jim, Neil, Etc. Etc. Etc. have all been active in all phases of my jumping progression and canopy skills. I have went to them for their knowledge in regards to my freefall skills and canopy purchases.

I have the responsibility to go seek the advice and knowledge. I cannot expect the folks at the DZ's I visit to come to me and say " Hey I see you X number of jumps and your most likely gonna change canopies soon" and then offer their advice. It is my responsibility to go to them and seek the knowledge.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[davelepka 4]

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm sure that all are very helpful. Many folks are.

What isn't always helpful is the quality of the advice they're giving. This isn't intentional, but a result of the overall situation.

If a guy is never tought properly in the beginning, there is a chance that they will be working with, and passing along, some sort of mis-information.

Is this a rule? No. Is it happening to you? I don't know. Is this something that could be eliminated if new jumpers are taught properly in the beginning/ Absolutely.

One last time, this isn't a commentary on any one person or groups advice or inentions with giving that advice.

[nathaniel 0]

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What isn't always helpful is the quality of the advice they're giving. This isn't intentional, but a result of the overall situation.

And this is where data comes in. Any complete nub can go to Gary Peek's website and say with complete authority, "a skydiver can fall at rate X", or "the opening shock on a canopy can be Y".
"Experts" unarmed with such data can't compete. But arm them with data...then they are to be reckoned.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[peek 21]

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Gary knows a LOT about parachute testing and construction because of his work in that area. However, he'd be the first to tell you that he's not a high performance canopy flight coach; he doesn't jump very high performance canopies. (Although I think he's finally given up his Manta that he used to jump at WFFC.)

Actually, I have a Stiletto 150 loaded at about 1.9 and I hook-turn the living shit out of it sometimes, but, correct, I cannot instruct someone on the finer points of swooping, since I have never tried getting any extra-special performance out of it. (Once your canopy flys faster than you can run on a no-wind day, what more do you need, besides a brush to clean your rig?)

Few people see me jump my Stiletto at the WFFC because fortunately I have 3 other rigs with more appropriate canopies for that situation. (Hint, hint, for some of you....)

When you have a Man O' War the Manta is the "small" canopy, ha, ha.....

But anyway folks, not to interrupt Bill's point....

[davelepka 4]

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What isn't always helpful is the quality of the advice they're giving. This isn't intentional, but a result of the overall situation.

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And this is where data comes in.

Not really. There are people out there with good information in hand already. There's no need for more information, just a need to get it out to the masses

For example, if every jumper took Scott Millers entry-level course before being issued an A license, and the advanced course before being issued a B license, that would solve a great deal of the problem, but as well all know (except maybe Scott) he's only oen man, and can only do so much.

If we could get that same course material, and put in the hands of experienced instructors across the country, that would be something. If we could make it a license requirement, that would be even better.

The information exists. Some people have it. We need to find a way for everyone to have it.

[NelKel 0]

The information exists. Some people have it. We need to find a way for everyone to have it. <<<<


Excuse me for jumping in here, I don't wish to come between you guys.

There is in fact a new plan that has been put in motion by the USPA a year ago. There is a gray proficiency card in the back of the SIM's. The USPA states they do not issue Canopy Course Director Raings. I read this as YET. If this catches on, it just might be what we are looking for. Check it out.

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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[davelepka 4]

If you could see me, you'd see me not holding my breath.

[NelKel 0]

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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[skybytch 273]

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If we could get that same course material, and put in the hands of experienced instructors across the country, that would be something. If we could make it a license requirement, that would be even better.

The material for a basic canopy control course, including a canopy piloting proficiency card, is in the 2006 SIM. The course syllabus appears to me to be much the same as what Scott teaches.

Experienced people who can teach, video landings and give a good debrief on the video can teach this course this weekend if they want. It only takes a day of your time.

Yeah, I guess that was a challenge. C'mon, those of you who know you can, I dare ya. Teach a canopy control course next month. Teach one every month. Charge for it or don't, your choice.

DZO's, chief instructors - make the canopy proficiency card a requirement for getting an A license at your dropzone, and encourage all jumpers regardless of license to complete it.

Maybe we'll see a difference in the number of lowtimer injuries next season because of it. It would certainly prove the point if we do, wouldn't it?

[Trae 1]

in reply to "What we need to see the dissemination of accurate and complete knowledge, along with a unified front on the issue of proper canopy selection. "
............................

Hear Here,

...emphasis on UNIFIED.

It's getting obvious what needs doing .

If the order doesn't come down from on high ( where are they anyway? ...counting their money????? ) then us down on the coal face should put our combined foot down.

as skybytch says 'DZO's, chief instructors - make the canopy proficiency card a requirement for getting an A license at your dropzone, and encourage all jumpers regardless of license to complete it."

If this is THE point of control then instead of just encouraging all ....make it a definite requirement. Even the cubs and scouts hand out proficiency badges.

Some way of proving your proficiency under canopy is definitely called for before you're let loose to carve your way through the turkeys..or be the sharpest thing since other BS. (NB ..dig at manufacturers advertising ploys )

[MikeySilva 0]

This is almost certainly going to come out wrong, but I having all 35 jumps, sometimes find it difficult taking canopy advice from people with 500 plus jumps who are consistently biffing landings when I've stood up every landing since being off AFF (completed in 5 jumps not including 2 tandems). Basically I guess what I'm trying to say is that the number of jumps doesn't matter for me when I get advice and I'm very cautions when taking advice from people who's skills are unknown or seem to be marginaly better than my own. However, I do have people at the DZ who I respect and admire and try to find a lesson in everything they say. I could see how students could be doomed from the start if their DZ was run by the same slack-jawed yokals that I find giving me hap-hazard advice.

[kelpdiver 2]

What sort of advice are they giving you? Might not be all that bad.

[Liemberg 0]

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"DZO's, chief instructors - make the canopy proficiency card a requirement for getting an A license at your dropzone, and encourage all jumpers regardless of license to complete it."

Actually, that is what's in place in my country.

Apart from 25 freefall jumps, they should also have 10 landings within 15 meters from the target. And they are supposed to make five jumps, with a compulsory program, solely dedicated to flying their canopies.

I find that implementation is a bit of a pain in the ***.

I could very well live with the 10 jumps within 15 meters, provided that it was up to me to distinguish between 'landing' and 'arriving'...

("Congrats with the well executed PLF at the right spot! The secondary goal however is to also keep your brand new salmon pink jumpsuit in mint condition...")

If it were up to me, 10 consecutive LANDINGS within 15 meter*) would be mandatory, before any downsizing could take place...

*) With of course freedom for the instructor to waive the 'breach of a series' when the student, through no fault of his own, had to balance his physical integrity or that of his fellow jumpers against completing his series...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...