Lack of responsible leadership is killing skydivers

[mjosparky 4]

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YOU are not my master, if i want to do something stupid, that is my decision.

You are right. You are your own master and have every right to do stupid things. But unless it is you drop zone you do not have the right to make stupid decisions on someone else’s dime.
When stupid decisions negatively impact the rights of others the right to make those decisions is taken away. If your rich 17 year old drives his Lamborghini Diablo in a manner that endangers others he will lose the privilege of driving the Lamborghini or any other car. See how that works.

Sparky

Just wondering, have you found a job yet?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kelpdiver 2]

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No-ones responsible for it that's the problem what I'm getting at.
A perfectly good life is lost just because some irresponsible pace setters make out it's all acceptable, Acceptable risk. unacceptable behaviour. And there's no leader big enough to say enough is enough ...... this is no longer acceptable in a caring world.

What am I gonna do about it?????

TUG?

It's a dangerous sport, unforgiving of errors. That's never going to change. And it will continue to attract the sort of people who prefer pushing the envelope. I don't see any way around this reality.

Regulations can help modify really risky stuff, but canopies don't have such a clear answer, esp when you consider the bulk of the fatalities in 2004/2005 were to experienced people, not low timers. By the time someone hits that D license, they should have the knowledge to make informed choices.

[Trae 1]

in reply to " It's a dangerous sport, unforgiving of errors. That's never going to change. And it will continue to attract the sort of people who prefer pushing the envelope. I don't see any way around this reality. "
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yeah got to agree ...the thing is there are degrees of danger.
OK most of our leadership may be responsible and most of the dummies may not listen.......but who's in charge?????

I've seen DZSO's that grounded me as a kid for hook turning 230's allowing low timers to do what they want now including ultra light BASE on DZ's. These same geriatrics just don't have the balls to say SLOW DOWN to the the current generation.

It's easy I was grounded often enough to know that all you need is the will to reduce the accident quota...and the balls to open your mouth .

It's very hard to see past some of our leaders conflicts of interests given all the money they've made out of the sport.
Sure it's dangerous...always was .... but it doesn't have to get more dangerous to keep it going ...does it?

Heaps of people have done the hard yards to make skydiving so accessible and relatively safe.
Now small canopies and small minds seem hell bent on making it all super dangerous again.

The dumb ass newbie on the 95 may just take out you or your friends . Acceptable risk.............??????

[NelKel 0]

Not all of us newbies stop listening. <<<<

I know, I didn't mean it pointed directly at you, are anyone else in perticular. I was only trying to show a pattern of thoes who go too far too fast.
I will always be a "Student" as there is so much to learn in this sport. My first priority will always be my safety and the safety of those around me. <<<<

Glad to hear it.

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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[OATSF14 0]

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Give everybody the relavent information on safety, but then stop the nanny state and let them fuck up if they want to, its their call

Bravo. Well said.

[kallend 2,027]

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YOU are not my master, if i want to do something stupid, that is my decision.

You are right. You are your own master and have every right to do stupid things. But unless it is you drop zone you do not have the right to make stupid decisions on someone else’s dime.
When stupid decisions negatively impact the rights of others the right to make those decisions is taken away. If your rich 17 year old drives his Lamborghini Diablo in a manner that endangers others he will lose the privilege of driving the Lamborghini or any other car. See how that works.

Sparky

So if it's OK with the DZO it's OK with you?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[apoil 0]

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Me: You know, I've never heard someone with 100 jumps tell me that

Yes, but you told a guy with 100 jumps he would be fine under a certain canopy...

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that's a lie Ron. I said no such thing, and I don't appreciate you attempting to discredit me like that.

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And after he broke his leg it seems you were wrong. Maybe I get told that cause I actually say something they don't want to hear and you tell them only what they want to hear.

Telling people what they want to hear? That's a rare accusation to level against me. Most of what I say is unwelcome most of the time.

I have been an instructor for several years, Ron, full time for the past year and a half, I train a lot of students and I make a concerted effort to keep them safe. There's nothing I focus on more than canopy safety before giving anyone an A license.

But maybe you are right. Maybe I'm not confrontational enough. No matter what the approach, some folks just aren't going to listen. We both know that.

My suggestion was only that there's the possibility that if people are reacting to you in a consistent manner, it may be related to the way you talk to them.

Believe it or not, I am delivering the same message I just never get told to fuck off because I don't know what I'm talking about. Sometimes my statements are considered and perhaps rejected but my students who have gone on to become active skydivers have all been very prudent in their canopy choices and that has to be due at least in part to my influence.

Look how you are reacting to me suggesting that you might not be communicating effectively. You are taking it personally and levelling all kinds of false counter accusations in order to discredit me. Why does a young canopy pilot behave any differently when his ego is threatened?

But it still leads me to do some self reflection and consider the effectiveness of what I tried to say to you and whether or not it was undeservedly provocatory.

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And if I remember correctly you told me I had no idea what I was talking about back then....Of course it turned out you didn't really know the size of the canopy.

you don't know what you are talking about now!
I was upset because my friend just got hurt and I didn't appreciate the way you were making it public. I was probably wrong about that, but you are misrepresenting far too many details.

[Ron 10]

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And if I remember correctly you told me I had no idea what I was talking about back then....Of course it turned out you didn't really know the size of the canopy.

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you don't know what you are talking about now!
I was upset because my friend just got hurt and I didn't appreciate the way you were making it public. I was probably wrong about that, but you are misrepresenting far too many details.

Oh geeze. You jumped my shit back then. I said he had a 1.5 WL and you told me I was wrong and "spreading falsehoods".

Problem is that you didn''t know that the canopy he was jumping was listed bigger than it was and he was actually under a 1.55 WL. Even once that bit of info came out you still claimed I was "posting falsehoods".

Your post did seem like an attack on me. And given your and my history (namely you telling me I didn't know shit)...How could I take it any other way?

I'm done here...You are normally a nice guy, but I can only take a guy calling me a liar so much and then jumping me yet again.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 4]

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YOU are not my master, if i want to do something stupid, that is my decision.

You are right. You are your own master and have every right to do stupid things. But unless it is you drop zone you do not have the right to make stupid decisions on someone else’s dime.
When stupid decisions negatively impact the rights of others the right to make those decisions is taken away. If your rich 17 year old drives his Lamborghini Diablo in a manner that endangers others he will lose the privilege of driving the Lamborghini or any other car. See how that works.

Sparky

So if it's OK with the DZO it's OK with you?

The one that owns the football makes the rules. You may not like it but thats the way it is.

What I was saying was artistcalledian does not have the right to make stupid decisions at a DZ owned and operated by someone else. Any of his "rights" end when they affect other people. He is not 9 years old and the center of the universe no matter what his mother told him.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[apoil 0]

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Oh geeze. You jumped my shit back then. I said he had a 1.5 WL and you told me I was wrong and "spreading falsehoods".

At the time you also said I sold him the canopy!

But that's not the point. Your choice to bring up all those facts is a smokescreen from the rather simple point I made in this thread which is that maybe if you are getting such a violent reaction from 100 jump wonders it has something to do with the way you talk to them.

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Your post did seem like an attack on me. And given your and my history (namely you telling me I didn't know shit)...How could I take it any other way?

I'm not so cunning as to have intended it, but notice how being personally challenged made you react? How different are you from that guy with 100 jumps getting told what he doesn't know? You should at least be able to understand their perspective. You were the same way when you were new in the sport. How can you expect others to listen when you didn't.

And this isn't about you or me. It's about how to be a more effective instructor, and a better communicator. I'm continually trying to learn how to more effectively communicate the message. Someone truly concerned with keeping people sensible and safe in their canopy progression would be open to any methods or techniques that might get the message across.

[Ron 10]

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At the time you also said I sold him the canopy!

I also said if I am wrong and if I am I'm sorry.

You flat called me a liar even after others provided proof. You then started a tap dance routine...Showing how far a person will go to try and not appear wrong.

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But that's not the point. Your choice to bring up all those facts is a smokescreen from the rather simple point I made in this thread which is that maybe if you are getting such a violent reaction from 100 jump wonders it has something to do with the way you talk to them.

And my point is how you did the same thing the 100 jump wonders do...you thought you knew better so you basicly told me I didn't know what I was talking about. You were wrong, but it didn't stop you from claiming I knew nothing.

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How different are you from that guy with 100 jumps getting told what he doesn't know?

How different was it when you thought you knew more and told me to shut up?

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You were the same way when you were new in the sport. How can you expect others to listen when you didn't.

You KNEW me back then? You were around back then? Or are you just making a wild guess?

HINT: I have been skydiving for 12 years and you have been jumping 8-9....So that means you were not around back then, but thanks for playing along.

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Someone truly concerned with keeping people sensible and safe in their canopy progression would be open to any methods or techniques that might get the message across.

Yep and you proved my point that people get bad info and don't listen when people try to give them the correct info....Some go so far as to call the person with the correct info a liar.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[peckerhead 0]

>>>>eg1 newbies having unrestricted access to high performance canopies.

It is not just newbies unfortunately....

Swooping kills the mega jump skygod too.

[psf 1]

I am relatively new here, but has there ever been a motion to have a skills test for allowed canopy size/style? We test out our skills for license's, but not for canopies. Maybe we should?
We can't make night jumps without a B, need water training for B, but never is there a skills test other then accuracy for canopies. That wouldn't be too hard to enforce. Once above a certain skill level, your on your own to make your decisions? What do you think?

ignorance is not bliss

[skybytch 273]

Oh please. Can't you guys take the "you said, I said" to PM's?

This was a useful thread...

[davelepka 4]

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I am relatively new here, but has there ever been a motion to have a skills test for allowed canopy size/style? We test out our skills for license's, but not for canopies. Maybe we should?
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Great idea. It's been discussed many times, and it had it's share of suporters and detractors.

It's no surprise that the majority of detractors were those who stood to fall under the new rules, and those who supported were generally experienced enough to bypass the new rules.

Don't hold your breath.

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[nathaniel 0]

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It's no surprise that the majority of detractors were those who stood to fall under the new rules

or contrariwise, it's no surprise that the majority of supporters were people unaffected by the proposal--either not included or intended to pursue canopy coaching regardless.
Forget about tossing jibes at people, the 800 lb gorilla sitting in the corner is that there's very few hard facts about canopies, canopy performance, jumpers and jumper performance. What little there may be is hoarded by canopy manufacturers, not shared by jumpers, or collected by any institution. The first step after resolving to create a skills test is to identify skills. We have a lot of hunches but no good basis for believing and standardizing, let alone testing, any of them.
As you can see about all that's accomplished in the absence of good data is ad hominem attacks.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[billvon 2,991]

>What little there may be is hoarded by canopy manufacturers, not shared by jumpers . . .

For you to believe this you must have never met Brian Germain, John LeBlanc, Bill Hazlett or Aubrey Easterlin - all of whom have gone out of their way to make their knowledge available to others.

But making it available is just half the equation. The way things stand now jumpers must make an effort to find that information, because it's not all in one place (like the SIM.) It's in Brian's book and his courses. It's in John's PIA symposiums. It's in Bill's packing videos. It's in Aubrey's talks at boogies. Which means that people have to want to get it - and few do. "Why do I need to buy that book or go to that boogie? I'm standing up almost all of my landings; I'm fine."

[nathaniel 0]

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For you to believe this you must have never met Brian Germain, John LeBlanc, Bill Hazlett or Aubrey Easterlin - all of whom have gone out of their way to make their knowledge available to others.

I've met some famous people and heard them speak &c. That's not data. Data is equations, facts, statistics, numbers and figures. It's conspicuously missing from discussions about canopy performance. At least the ones that I've been privy to.
Maybe it's unfair to call it hoarding if it's never been substantially collected to begin with...I really don't know or care why it's not published, only that it isn't.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[davelepka 4]

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That's not data. Data is equations, facts, statistics, numbers and figures. It's conspicuously missing from discussions about canopy performance. At least the ones that I've been privy to.

The issue you're missing (repeatedly) is that the problem does not lie with the canopies, it's with the pilots.

Any time a canopy has presented an issue (Nova, Crossfire1) the manufacturer or the community has stepped up and either recalled them or just stopped jumping them.

Any of the canopies involved in open canopy incidents can be flown safely be the right pilot. I'm not sure what sort of information you're after, but I cannot imagine any sort of data that will define what pilot is ready for what WL on what model canopy.

This is the real issue here, pilot readyness. I've said it before, if you could see into the futture, anf tell me that Joe Jumper with 100 jumps is capable of flying a Velo 90, and will not be injured in doing so, I'd be all for Joe getting down with the Velo.

The problem is that you cannot tell me that. You can guess, but if you're wrong Joe faces some serious consequenses for your mistake.

Which is why the best we can do is look at the general trends. What WL seems to work well for upcoming jumpers? Which models seem to be too responsive for learning purposes? What common mistakes to people seem to make (which leads to what information should be taught)?

The answer to these questions lie in the more experienced jumpers who have th eknowledge to know what they're looking for, and the desire to see, define, and fix it. How can you quantify things like jumpers who have a poor flare technique? You can't, but many jumpers do, and would benefit from some additional training in that area.


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It's no surprise that the majority of detractors were those who stood to fall under the new rules

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or contrariwise, it's no surprise that the majority of supporters were people unaffected by the proposal--either not included or intended to pursue canopy coaching regardless.
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You're missing a couple of huge points here. Firstly, the fact that supprters of canopy regulation and testing are the more experienced of the group only further supprts their stance. Their longer time in the sport, and greater depth of experience makes them more qualified to speak on the issue of canoy control.

The second point is that the more experienced jumper has nothing to gain by implementing these regulations, aside from the safety of the newer jumpers. My life won't change any, I won't make any more money, or win any awards. The only thing I get is too see fewer jumpers being hurt of killed under perfectly good parachutes.

[billvon 2,991]

>Data is equations, facts, statistics, numbers and figures.

You mean pack volume, weight, square footage, line trim? All those are readily available.

You mean exactly how it will behave under X condition? Impossible to quantify.

You mean how many pounds will be felt on a toggle if you pull it X inches with a Y jumper under it at Z altitude? True, there is no such info; but such info is essentially useless.

What's missing is not data; it's education. We need more education to prevent good-canopy injuries and fatalities. Knowing that your canopy can lose X feet per second in a turn will not help you one iota when someone cuts you off at 50 feet. Knowing how to flat turn will help you.

[nathaniel 0]

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You mean exactly how it will behave under X condition? Impossible to quantify.

Wrong. Quantification is easy. Data is right in front of us and all around us, we need only capture it. We can use statistics to validate the rules and infer the parameters of canopy behavior only when we have data.

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What's missing is not data; it's education.

They are not substitutes. They are complementary.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[nathaniel 0]

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I cannot imagine any sort of data that will define what pilot is ready for what WL on what model canopy.

I bet that the sheer speed, acceleration & control pressure on Luigi's vx-34 or whatever he's down to now would be sufficient to disqualify a huge portion of jumpers (myself included).

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This is the real issue here, pilot readyness.

Agreed. Give a pilot some data about his vehicle and he is better equipped to fly it. Simple things like the rest of the aviation community has put together. Cruising speed, glide ratio & parameters of control inputs. Right now all we can tell each other is "that one is hella fast" "drives like a bus" etc. because we have not data on it.

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The answer to these questions lie in the more experienced jumpers who have th eknowledge

If we have the knowledge we sure haven't betrayed it, or we are terrible communicators. Knowledge is not embodied in the polish on charts and conclusions, it lies in the reasoning that leads to them.

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Firstly, the fact that supprters of canopy regulation and testing are the more experienced of the group only further supprts their stance.

I didn't mean to encourage ad hominem attacks when I pointed out them out... geez give it up already.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[davelepka 4]

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Quantification is easy. Data is right in front of us and all around us, we need only capture it.

OK, now you're in charge. How do we capture the data?

[nathaniel 0]

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OK, now you're in charge. How do we capture the data?

With our cooperative imaginations, and with a small amount of money.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[billvon 2,991]

>Quantification is easy. Data is right in front of us and all around us,
>we need only capture it. We can use statistics to validate the rules
>and infer the parameters of canopy behavior only when we have data.

I think you are overestimating what we can learn from low level canopy data.

A fixed wing pilot can know all about laminar flow; he could even stick his aircraft in a wind tunnel and watch the streamlines. But that will not likely help him fly it. He has to know how to recover from a stall, how to deal with icing, how to set up a stabilized descent, how to fly a holding pattern etc. And a pilot who has practiced those things, but has no data on laminar flow, will be infinitely better than one who knows all about the aerodynamics of his aircraft but has never tried any of those procedures.

Similarly, we need education on HOW TO FLY OUR CANOPIES, not data on where the stagnation point is on the nose.

Now, if you want to go out and collect all that data, go for it! It will likely be useful to canopy manufacturers and riggers who modify canopies. Every little bit helps.