President Trump

[SkyDekker 1,465]

8 minutes ago, jakee said:

How much have you actually heard the Dems talk about woke, though? Not the right wing media screaming that everything is woke, but actual Dems saying woke things?

As SkyDekker points out though, who knows what you or anyone else s talking about when you say 'woke' anyway. Last year the BBC revamped the cast of a long running quiz show to try and appeal to a younger audience, and one of the changes was to replace the female host with a middle aged, working class white man.... and the right wing media whined that they were going woke. Go figure.

You've just spent 6 months telling us it was the (supposed) state of the economy that would do that. Were you bullshitting then or are you bullshitting now?

The difference between causation and correlation hasn't been a strong suit. So my guess is that the Trump victory is now validation for every opinion they held.

I am sure Tucker will soon claim that this proved abortions cause hurricanes and demons invented nuclear bomb technology.

 

[wmw999 2,456]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

So you are in the “men can have babies” camp? Bless your heart.

So you're in the "my opinion of someone else counts" camp? Bless your heart.

Wendy P.

[brenthutch 444]

48 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

You can't even define woke. Yet you are so sure it is a problem.

 

It wasn’t me it was a Democrat strategist.

[richravizza 28]

1 minute ago, brenthutch said:

It wasn’t me it was a Democrat strategist.

I actually thanked my Latino customers yesterday, If it weren't for them.. and of course the Black Man showed up. So Bravo Sirs. 

Biden must be the happiest D in DC in that can always say "I could have beaten him"

Check out Kudlow's take 

 https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/larry-kudlow-trump-has-given-us-greatest-political-comeback-american-history

[brenthutch 444]

7 hours ago, kallend said:

IMO everyone who can benefit from higher ed. should get it and shouldn't depend on how wealthy your parents are.  In the long run having a better educated population benefits all of society, and, in general, the better educated end up paying higher taxes so real feedback exists.  (Clearly there are exceptions, such as real estate developers who defraud the government by fiddling the books.  With luck the legal system will catch up with  them in the end.)

 

Exit poll demographics show very clearly the benefit of a college education to decision making at the polling booth.

AI is going to displace a large portion of the college educated workforce, the one thing AI cannot replace is the trades. A computer can’t build a house, road, factory, bridge, plumbing, electrical etc. South Park did an excellent episode on just that. White collar guys on a curb asking passersby if they needed their taxes done or a geologic survey, or an engineering design done while plumbers drove by in their Lamborghinis. 

[gowlerk 2,216]

12 minutes ago, richravizza said:

I actually thanked my Latino customers yesterday, If it weren't for them.. and of course the Black Man showed up. So Bravo Sirs. 

White people over 45 were by far the biggest percentage performing group of Trump voters. People under that age preferred Harris. The non-white vote did indeed shift slightly to the right. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,371]

22 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

White people over 45 were by far the biggest percentage performing group of Trump voters.

Hi Ken,

These are the people who truly fear losing their jobs.  If you are a Joe 6-Pack over 45 and lose your job, there is not much in the way of employment opportunities.

However, Trump does not give a shit about them now that they have voted.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[nigel99 501]

15 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

These are the people who truly fear losing their jobs.  If you are a Joe 6-Pack over 45 and lose your job, there is not much in the way of employment opportunities.

However, Trump does not give a shit about them now that they have voted.

Jerry Baumchen

 

https://forward.com/opinion/633381/hitler-1932-trump-nazi-rise/

This is an interesting article.

[richravizza 28]

32 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

White people over 45 were by far the biggest percentage performing group of Trump voters. People under that age preferred Harris. The non-white vote did indeed shift slightly to the right. 

Yes everyone agreed, a threat to democracy just not in a perspective of your focus.You should lose the old white people thing because this was a whole lot more.

It was a rejection of the narrative and the media that pushes them.Independent media like Joe Rogan and X has destroyed the model. Some people still like to get their news,their narratives the old fashioned way.

To Kamala's credit

"we can now move forward, unburdened by what has been."

[JerryBaumchen 1,371]

23 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

https://forward.com/opinion/633381/hitler-1932-trump-nazi-rise/

This is an interesting article.

Hi Nigel,

Looks like we will all have to buy a copy of Art of the Deal to stay out of the camps.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Nice article; I have long said that the rise of Trump is very similar to the rise of the Third Reich.

Edited November 8, 2024 by JerryBaumchen

[gowlerk 2,216]

19 minutes ago, richravizza said:

You should lose the old white people thing because this was a whole lot more.

People over 45 but are the only age demographic who favoured Trump. Younger ages broke for Harris. The over 65 crowd just slightly went Trump. All major non white groups went for Harris more than Trump but whites were stronger for him. Of course the voting population is predominantly white and over 45 so no one can win without a considerable amount of votes from them. No group is completely on one side only. I believe that concern over immigration is still the predominant reason Trump was able to win both the nomination and the general. It is the same as in Europe. People are feeling invaded by outsiders and they don't like and fear the cultural change. Trump is deeply flawed and everyone knows it but many people hope he will do something to stop the change and they are sure that Harris and company won't.

Edited November 8, 2024 by gowlerk

[richravizza 28]

14 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

https://forward.com/opinion/633381/hitler-1932-trump-nazi-rise/

This is an interesting article.

I'm a piece of Garbage,Just ask our CIC.

It's a boring subject full of holes like swiss cheese; or an aviation disaster, but when they all line up... we know crash and burn. 

I hope you not the typical postmodern deconstructionist. I won't debate unless I know my interlocutor is honest. There's a Trump hitler thread but we don't need to go there.I'll simply proceed where it died the last time.

A BillV or a BillW perspective, but a smile first. 

 This lesson brought to you by context or..

"The beatings will continue until morale improves"

[base698 19]

12 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

People over 45 but are the only age demographic who favoured Trump. Younger ages broke for Harris.

That's because we have kids and saw what they were teaching kids, dealt with lock downs, and had to worry they would test pharmaceuticals for a disease with a median death age of 82 on our babies.

[richravizza 28]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

People over 45 but are the only age demographic who favoured Trump. Younger ages broke for Harris. The over 65 crowd just slightly went Trump. All major non white groups went for Harris more than Trump but whites were stronger for him. Of course the voting population is predominantly white and over 45 so no one can win without a considerable amount of votes from them. No group is completely on one side only. I believe that concern over immigration is still the predominant reason Trump was able to win both the nomination and the general. It is the same as in Europe. People are feeling invaded by outsiders and they don't like and fear the cultural change. Trump is deeply flawed and everyone knows it but many people hope he will do something to stop the change and they are sure that Harris and company won't.

 It's called a populist movement, so accept it or move out of the way. The revolt is to liberal elite ideals, a rejection of their luxury belief system, because we lived with  your consequences.

 I made the case that the pollsters did not understand the populist surprise that was coming on Election Day. Sure enough, virtually none of them did. Here's what they missed. Mr. Trump has put together an expanded populist working folks and middle American coalition that includes young Latinos, Blacks, Whites, Asians, women. Trump is four points better with women and unions. He founded this coalition back in 2015-2016, and it has ebbed and flowed over the years, but the key point in this election is that he expanded the coalition.  

He wasn't just speaking to the base, he was expanding the base. Young voters had a 19 point shift to Trump. Black men, 12 points. Hispanic men, 16 points. No college degrees, 8 points. Incomes under $50,000, 10 points. Catholics, 8 points higher. Most pollsters never understood the new Trump coalition in the first place, and they surely did not understand how much he was expanding it.  

Edited November 8, 2024 by richravizza

[JerryBaumchen 1,371]

37 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

People over 45 but are the only age demographic who favoured Trump. Younger ages broke for Harris. The over 65 crowd just slightly went Trump. All major non white groups went for Harris more than Trump but whites were stronger for him. Of course the voting population is predominantly white and over 45 so no one can win without a considerable amount of votes from them. No group is completely on one side only. I believe that concern over immigration is still the predominant reason Trump was able to win both the nomination and the general. It is the same as in Europe. People are feeling invaded by outsiders and they don't like and fear the cultural change. Trump is deeply flawed and everyone knows it but many people hope he will do something to stop the change and they are sure that Harris and company won't.

Hi Ken,

I do think you are correct. 

He put the fear into the voters.  The fear that they are taking your job.  IMO for a person over 45, that is their biggest fear.

Jerry Baumchen

[gowlerk 2,216]

1 minute ago, richravizza said:

 It's called a populist movement, so accept it or move out of the way. The revolt is to the liberal elite ideals, a rejection of their luxury belief system, because we live with  your consequences.

Sure, I have accepted that a small majority or at the very least a very large minority is following the path of fear, and even that some of the fear is not unreasonable. But at the same time I would ask you to accept that society is very evenly divided and unless you are willing to accept the end of democracy you will also need to move out of the way one day. Populism is not a new thing and it has a long history of only lasting for a limited time.

[gowlerk 2,216]

5 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

I do think you are correct. 

He put the fear into the voters.  The fear that they are taking your job.  IMO for a person over 45, that is their biggest fear.

Jerry Baumchen

I don't think it is that simple. Most of the Trumpy people I know (mostly Canadian) feel secure in their employment. But this vague fear that the "elites" are trying to change society by importing muslims is something I am hearing over and over again. Of course when you ask them why these elites would want to do this or they quickly change the subject and go off on a tangent about pizza place basement sacrifices and such. They just are in no mood accept a reality that doesn't make them and their people victims of so many things that make them feel out of control.

[JoeWeber 2,734]

Just now, gowlerk said:

I don't think it is that simple. Most of the Trumpy people I know (mostly Canadian) feel secure in their employment. But this vague fear that the "elites" are trying to change society by importing muslims is something I am hearing over and over again. Of course when you ask them why these elites would want to do this or they quickly change the subject and go off on a tangent about pizza place basement sacrifices and such. They just are in no mood accept a reality that doesn't make them and their people victims of so many things that make them feel out of control.

Sure, but in reality our deep diving into that sort of  analysis is about as useful as reading the nutritional label on a box of crackerjacks: interesting for a moment but we still bought a box of junk by being stupid. And I'm not talking about MAGA heads, I mean we liberals. We simply do not know how to read the room. We all thought that reasonable, rational people would discard Trump based on his odious character and simply didn't care that Harris had a bad message and started way too late. Biden owns that, for sure. If he would have telegraphed his intention to be a one term President the mandarins would have had time to come to grips with reality, maybe. There should have been a field to choose from, bottom line. So we totally screwed that up royally. I don't blame Latino men, Black men, or suburban women. I blame us. We blew it with our hi-falutin ideas that take nuance to comprehend and do nothing to address the price of eggs on the shelf. DEI is a noble idea, and I believe it's the right way to live, but in an election it's also an anagram for DIE.

[gowlerk 2,216]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

And I'm not talking about MAGA heads, I mean we liberals. We simply do not know how to read the room.

Steve Bannon in 2015 said that if the D party tried to win on identity politics it would lose. Because the coalition of identities that are outside of the dominant one is too small. He was right. The only reason Biden won in 2020 was not a backlash against Trump, it was the upheaval of covid. 

[nigel99 501]

17 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Sure, but in reality our deep diving into that sort of  analysis is about as useful as reading the nutritional label on a box of crackerjacks: interesting for a moment but we still bought a box of junk by being stupid. And I'm not talking about MAGA heads, I mean we liberals. We simply do not know how to read the room. We all thought that reasonable, rational people would discard Trump based on his odious character and simply didn't care that Harris had a bad message and started way too late. Biden owns that, for sure. If he would have telegraphed his intention to be a one term President the mandarins would have had time to come to grips with reality, maybe. There should have been a field to choose from, bottom line. So we totally screwed that up royally. I don't blame Latino men, Black men, or suburban women. I blame us. We blew it with our hi-falutin ideas that take nuance to comprehend and do nothing to address the price of eggs on the shelf. DEI is a noble idea, and I believe it's the right way to live, but in an election it's also an anagram for DIE.

I have been thinking about this for a long time. First of all I’m a bit pissed off either the armchair analysis by the media stating that the dems need to take a good hard look at what they did wrong. 

When things are going badly or perceived to be, then people look for alternatives and unfortunately populist simple solutions are attractive. I was shocked when I visited the US earlier this year to see the level of homelessness and prices of groceries.

We see the rise of the right wing dictators but so far I’ve not really seen a viable alternative proposed. Life is incredibly complicated, changes in policy take time to flow through to change.

Ironically the democratic 4 year cycle and also term limits of US presidents undermine the ability to effect significant changes. changes made by one administration start to take effect just as they leave power and there is no accountability (especially with a poorly informed and educated population).

A few ideas that I think are worth considering although I’m sure each has significant risks

1. Devolve power and bring it closer to the people.

2. Consider qualified majority voting. Education level, income based, possibly a mandatory civics class. (I don’t think the long term unemployed should be allowed to vote)

3. Significantly slash the income of politicians to align them with other civil servants and remove the whole corporate sponsorship corruption/angle.

4. A Swiss style referendum on significant issues instead of allowing representatives to make changes on behalf of the people.

5. Australian style mandatory voting (helps to ensure that centrist people vote)

6. Replace the sense of community and communal spirit that has been replaced by self centred individualism. I hate to admit it, but good old traditional religion does this quite well

7. old the rich and powerful to the same standard of law as the poor and vulnerable are. 

[JoeWeber 2,734]

1 hour ago, nigel99 said:

I have been thinking about this for a long time. First of all I’m a bit pissed off either the armchair analysis by the media stating that the dems need to take a good hard look at what they did wrong. 

When things are going badly or perceived to be, then people look for alternatives and unfortunately populist simple solutions are attractive. I was shocked when I visited the US earlier this year to see the level of homelessness and prices of groceries.

We see the rise of the right wing dictators but so far I’ve not really seen a viable alternative proposed. Life is incredibly complicated, changes in policy take time to flow through to change.

Ironically the democratic 4 year cycle and also term limits of US presidents undermine the ability to effect significant changes. changes made by one administration start to take effect just as they leave power and there is no accountability (especially with a poorly informed and educated population).

A few ideas that I think are worth considering although I’m sure each has significant risks

1. Devolve power and bring it closer to the people.

2. Consider qualified majority voting. Education level, income based, possibly a mandatory civics class. (I don’t think the long term unemployed should be allowed to vote)

3. Significantly slash the income of politicians to align them with other civil servants and remove the whole corporate sponsorship corruption/angle.

4. A Swiss style referendum on significant issues instead of allowing representatives to make changes on behalf of the people.

5. Australian style mandatory voting (helps to ensure that centrist people vote)

6. Replace the sense of community and communal spirit that has been replaced by self centred individualism. I hate to admit it, but good old traditional religion does this quite well

7. old the rich and powerful to the same standard of law as the poor and vulnerable are. 

It's all over but the crying. But I'm not crying, I'm repositioning. I now live in an every person for themselves country so I will adjust. Everyone should dry their tears as soon as possible and recognize that it's not just the next 4 years but likely longer with or without Trump. They need to realize that our Supreme Court will become a permanent extreme right institution. Exhibit one of our stupidity was Connor, Exhibit two was RBG. Exhibit three is likely to be Sotomayor.

Edited November 8, 2024 by JoeWeber

[jakee 1,500]

7 hours ago, brenthutch said:

It wasn’t me it was a Democrat strategist.

And given what’s just happened - Dem strategists must be right?

[jakee 1,500]

4 hours ago, nigel99 said:

5. Australian style mandatory voting (helps to ensure that centrist people vote)

Just making it not an incredibly arduous mission to vote would be a major improvement. Let alone the voter suppression efforts involving purging the voter rolls, the effort involved in going to vote on Election Day in many places in the US is utterly insane. People turning up at 11 in the morning and casting their vote in late afternoon. In a lot of big cities if people haven’t postal voted they’d need to take an entire day off work to go and vote, and poor people can’t afford a day off. That’s a heck of a way to discourage a certain type of person from voting.

Its fucking crazy and utterly indefensible. I’ve never waited in line more than a couple of minutes to vote.

[metalslug 36]

8 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I have long said that the rise of Trump is very similar to the rise of the Third Reich.

Yes, the people of Israel are certainly also onboard with your fears...

[wmw999 2,456]

9 hours ago, richravizza said:

 It's called a populist movement, so accept it or move out of the way. The revolt is to liberal elite ideals, a rejection of their luxury belief system, because we lived with  your consequences.

 

And the last two significant waves of populism in the US (late 1800's and late 20's into the 30's) were ended by change. One was, in part, the trust-busting of T. Roosevelt, as well as the blatantly jingoistic "let's all pull together" journalism of the Spanish American war. One is unlikely to happen (the corporations and elites now own the political process), and Fox News is trying mightily for the other, but that won't work as long as they make 1/2 of the country part of the enemy.

In the late 20's and 30's we had the run-up to and start of WW2.

In both cases, the populism was brought on in part (definitely not entirely) by a concentration of wealth with little view to using that wealth for much besides the accumulation of more wealth, along with there being enough dispossessed-feeling people (mainly farmers in the 1890's and just about everyone in the 1930's) to carry it along by word of mouth. 

Wendy P.