Some of them get it -- Sullivan Before the Election

[base698 19]

https://www.thetimes.com/world/us-world/article/why-trump-may-stage-greatest-comeback-us-history-7dfr8tzrq

 

When asked to name a weakness she had that she might overcome, she went full David Brent: “I mean, I’ve … I’ve made many mistakes. And they range from, you know, if you’ve ever parented a child you know you make lots of mistakes to, in my role as vice-president? I mean, I’ve probably worked very hard at making sure that I am well-versed on issues and I think that is very important. It’s a mistake not to be well-versed on an issue and feel compelled to answer a question.”

The entire event was a disaster: a near parody of why normal people hate the way politicians talk. Every answer seemed to be a form of damage control. And her body language … Well, it is not reassuring to think a person who cannot crisply answer a straight question will have to make split-second life-and-death decisions as president. She seemed like a party functionary — maybe a decent low-level cabinet member. But president? Sorry, but it didn’t and doesn’t add up. Most honest Democrats I know feel the same way.

The Democrats also missed a critical new reality in American politics: it’s about class, not identity. The Biden-Harris messaging was directed to women, “queers”, African-Americans and “Latinx” people. Trump messaging was about how well working-class people did before Covid, and how they could prosper again. “Harris is for they/them. Trump is for you” was a potent message. And if the polling pans out, Trump could assemble the most multi-racial coalition since Nixon, winning record numbers of black, Latino, Muslim and gay votes.

 

Edited November 8, 2024 by base698

[JoeWeber 2,734]

57 minutes ago, base698 said:

https://www.thetimes.com/world/us-world/article/why-trump-may-stage-greatest-comeback-us-history-7dfr8tzrq

 

When asked to name a weakness she had that she might overcome, she went full David Brent: “I mean, I’ve … I’ve made many mistakes. And they range from, you know, if you’ve ever parented a child you know you make lots of mistakes to, in my role as vice-president? I mean, I’ve probably worked very hard at making sure that I am well-versed on issues and I think that is very important. It’s a mistake not to be well-versed on an issue and feel compelled to answer a question.”

The entire event was a disaster: a near parody of why normal people hate the way politicians talk. Every answer seemed to be a form of damage control. And her body language … Well, it is not reassuring to think a person who cannot crisply answer a straight question will have to make split-second life-and-death decisions as president. She seemed like a party functionary — maybe a decent low-level cabinet member. But president? Sorry, but it didn’t and doesn’t add up. Most honest Democrats I know feel the same way.

The Democrats also missed a critical new reality in American politics: it’s about class, not identity. The Biden-Harris messaging was directed to women, “queers”, African-Americans and “Latinx” people. Trump messaging was about how well working-class people did before Covid, and how they could prosper again. “Harris is for they/them. Trump is for you” was a potent message. And if the polling pans out, Trump could assemble the most multi-racial coalition since Nixon, winning record numbers of black, Latino, Muslim and gay votes.

 

I'll concede, and have done so here repeatedly, that we missed a lot and Harris was far from the best candidate possible. But what is nonsensical to me is that the right seems unable to address Trumps criminality and unfitness in any serious way. For example, do you believe January 6 was a "love fest" as Trump has stated and will you be proud to be an American when he fulfills his promise to pardon the lot of those convicted of actions that resulted in 140 police officers being injured or worse? 

[base698 19]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

But what is nonsensical to me is that the right seems unable to address Trumps criminality and unfitness in any serious way. For example, do you believe January 6 was a "love fest" as Trump has stated and will you be proud to be an American when he fulfills his promise to pardon the lot of those convicted of actions that resulted in 140 police officers being injured or worse? 

I agree with this take: https://graymirror.substack.com/p/epitaph-for-pure-wind

Trump definitely influenced what happened, however, it was not an insurrection and the media trying to push that idea definitely helped him.  President Xi is not going to be negotiating with Viking guy.  Viking guy, if he was still in the Capitol after dark, would have been dead when Pelosi called in a strike team from her bunker.

Trump had no elite support in 2020 to pull off an insurrection.  

[JoeWeber 2,734]

49 minutes ago, base698 said:

I agree with this take: https://graymirror.substack.com/p/epitaph-for-pure-wind

Trump definitely influenced what happened, however, it was not an insurrection and the media trying to push that idea definitely helped him.  President Xi is not going to be negotiating with Viking guy.  Viking guy, if he was still in the Capitol after dark, would have been dead when Pelosi called in a strike team from her bunker.

Trump had no elite support in 2020 to pull off an insurrection.  

Thank you for making crystal clear what I only suspected. No doubt when you learn that we don’t have a department of deportations staffed with 20,000 officers or a fleet of deportation aircraft and that there aren’t any countries jonesing to take their share of 11 million people or that the United States doesn’t drill baby drill but that companies do and they already have 9000 leases if they wanted to drill but haven’t you’ll find something similar to post for our edification.

 

[base698 19]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Thank you for making crystal clear what I only suspected. No doubt when you learn that we don’t have a department of deportations staffed with 20,000 officers or a fleet of deportation aircraft and that there aren’t any countries jonesing to take their share of 11 million people or that the United States doesn’t drill baby drill but that companies do and they already have 9000 leases if they wanted to drill but haven’t you’ll find something similar to post for our edification.

I actually don't care about any of those issues.

[wmw999 2,456]

What do you care about?

Wendy P. 

[base698 19]

28 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

What do you care about?

Wendy P. 

I voted for Obama twice. In 2016 I didn't vote for president because I was mad about drone strikes, Bernie, the bailouts, etc. Trump is repugnant and narcissistic. He also seemed to pick a bad team once in office. I thought not voting Clinton would send a signal and they wouldn't run an establishment stooge the next time.  
  
I was primed to be radicalized into actively supporting the right-wing when I saw Santa Monica turn into a shit hole the 10 years I lived there. There is no excuse for letting addicts throw needles in the street and build tent encampments in residential neighborhoods. For all the talk about Trump being uncouth and uncivilized he's not advocating for policies letting people shit in the street.  
  
The covid policies, along with the 2020 riots have destroyed what used to be a beautiful, clean luxury shopping area along the coast. It still sits about 50% empty and about half the tourism traffic from 2019. From the evidence democrats seem to support ugliness and turning every civilized area into a dystopian hellscape where any critical talk which could fix it is censored by bureaucratic hall monitors.  
  
The mRNA treatment which had never worked in the previous 10 years of research being forced on an entire population under threat of losing a job and no long term studies across the population was just  I was having my first kid when that went down and had zero risk of infection since I was remote.  A treatment for a disease that had the median death of 82, which was known since at least April 2020, was not worth any unknown risk in other populations (particularly the young). It was amazing to see regulatory hurdles get removed to get it to market, but forcing anyone to take it when the mantra of the left had been "my body my choice" for the last 20 years is unbelievable. The incentive for fraud is too great when that much money is at stake to capitalize on having everyone buy a product. "Show me the incentive and I'll show the outcome". The left seem to completely ignore incentives.

If I had to rank it:
1) Covid policies 
2) The FED (Vance has paid this lip service, Elon had engagement with Ron Paul on Twitter. I am hopeful, but realistic)
3) Wars (I expect we leave the Ukraine quickly, and hope the Israel/Iran situation gets resolved, Pompeo being brought out the final campaign is a bad sign, but still hopeful)
4) Getting a lecture about being upset a homeless person was masturbating on the Muni in front of my Mother in Law.  "NOT HOMELESS UNHOUSED"

Edited November 8, 2024 by base698

[SkyDekker 1,465]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

9000 leases if they wanted to drill but haven’t

9000 permits

9000 permits on 24 million acres, of which 12 million acres have not been drilled on yet.

The irony of people complaining about the rich, while parroting the noise from the rich is sad.

[wmw999 2,456]

1 hour ago, base698 said:

1) Covid policies 
2) The FED (Vance has paid this lip service, Elon had engagement with Ron Paul on Twitter. I am hopeful, but realistic)
3) Wars (I expect we leave the Ukraine quickly, and hope the Israel/Iran situation gets resolved, Pompeo being brought out the final campaign is a bad sign, but still hopeful)
4) Getting a lecture about being upset a homeless person was masturbating on the Muni in front of my Mother in Law.  "NOT HOMELESS UNHOUSED"

Thank you. We have a homeless problem here, too, even though it’s snowy in winter. And Santa Monica is so much more pleasant than Houston (where I used to live), and housing so much less affordable, that I can understand it’s being way worse. Personally, I think unaffordable housing is a huge problem pretty much country wide, along with a lack of vibrant middle-class industry (ie not high tech and pharmaceutical).

I do disagree with your assessment on COVID, but then I’m closely embedded with relatives in the healthcare sector. COVID isn’t, in fact, the common cold; it’s turning out now that children who had COVID are significantly more likely than the general population to get diabetes; if they’re obese, it’s nearly 100%. 

I don’t understand the seemingly objection to the Fed by some people (and I was in Ron Paul’s district for awhile). I doubt it’s perfect, but would unfettered panics be better than the slightly more fettered ones that we’ve had since its inception? I’m no economist, so this is an honest question.

Wendy P. 

[base698 19]

48 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

do disagree with your assessment on COVID, but then I’m closely embedded with relatives in the healthcare sector. COVID isn’t, in fact, the common cold; it’s turning out now that children who had COVID are significantly more likely than the general population to get diabetes; if they’re obese, it’s nearly 100%. 

 

It certainly is not the common cold or flu after the age of 60.  Metabolic disorders are definitely one of the largest problems we face.  Ensuring at risk people had treatment was a better strategy than forcing the entire population to take a drug.  As soon as force is involved bad actors can abuse it.  The pharma industry has plenty of examples of abuse.  Examples that resulted in billion dollar legal judgements.  Talks of getting more exercise and diet changes were fat shaming.  Fat is beautiful!

I don't have time to talk about the Fed in detail. The root problem is it distorts the true price of goods.  Also, you can't wage war on every continent with sound money.  Fiat currency always comes about in times of war when you can't pay soldiers.  Then it becomes an addiction and driver of "growth".

[SkyDekker 1,465]

19 minutes ago, base698 said:

Fiat currency always comes about in times of war when you can't pay soldiers.  Then it becomes an addiction and driver of "growth".

The US started their transition to a fiat currency in 1933 and completed it in 1971. Was it the Vietnam War that drove the US to end the gold standard in your opinion?

It certainly wasn't at war in 1933.

Edited November 8, 2024 by SkyDekker

[JoeWeber 2,734]

8 hours ago, base698 said:

I actually don't care about any of those issues.

I've been troubled with this reply and trying to sort out what to say. The idea that 10-11 million people might be wrenched from their lives, undocumented or not, and the invariable large number of innocents who will be swept up as well doesn't bother you just doesn't sit with me. These people are your fellow human beings and having fellow human beings is what makes any sort of society possible. Fortunately your callous disregard for your fellow humans being deported has little chance of happening. I guess that is what makes me weak: I could never vote for anyone who held such a view no matter the advantage I might gain.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

I've been troubled with this reply and trying to sort out what to say. The idea that 10-11 million people might be wrenched from their lives, undocumented or not, and the invariable large number of innocents who will be swept up as well doesn't bother you just doesn't sit with me. These people are your fellow human beings and having fellow human beings is what makes any sort of society possible. Fortunately your callous disregard for your fellow humans being deported has little chance of happening. I guess that is what makes me weak: I could never vote for anyone who held such a view no matter the advantage I might gain.

Subhumans view immigrants as subhuman."TRUMP: If you call them people - I don't know if you call them people. In some cases, they're not people, in my opinion,...they are animals".

[base698 19]

9 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I've been troubled with this reply and trying to sort out what to say. The idea that 10-11 million people might be wrenched from their lives, undocumented or not, and the invariable large number of innocents who will be swept up as well doesn't bother you just doesn't sit with me.

Everyone here was trying to put words in my mouth on why I voted for Trump. You parroted standard points that you think right-leaning people use to justify their support of trump without first even asking me. With the exception of Wendy who is a master class of how you have a conversation.  You don't yell news, talking points and invent phantoms that aren't there or call people rapist supporters.  If that's your reaction on how to talk to people then you need to log off the internet and unplug the TV and read some books. Go on a walk. 

The context of when I said I don't care about these issues are that was not what motivated me to vote for Trump. Not that I don't care about immigrants. I'm not sure if you're arguing in bad faith or that's what you really thought, but either way it's a pretty awful demonstration of reading comprehension.

And if you want to have that conversation. If you look at the border towns, they voted overwhelmingly in support of trump even in communities with high immigrant populations.

[jakee 1,500]

26 minutes ago, base698 said:

The context of when I said I don't care about these issues are that was not what motivated me to vote for Trump. Not that I don't care about immigrants.

You completely miss the point. He didn’t say he was troubled because you voted for Trump in order to victimise it migrants. He said he’s troubled that you voted for Trump in spite of that because you don’t care about them. Which is exactly what you said - you don’t care. 

[base698 19]

5 minutes ago, jakee said:

. Which is exactly what you said - you don’t care. 

I am accountable to my family and three young children.  Children are a tremendous amount of work.  I do not have the capacity or resources  to care for someone else's decision to bring their family to another country.

The decisions your side made to threaten my livelihood and my family count more than an abstract immigrant family I don't know.

This is skydiving forum, you should understand accountability.   

[jakee 1,500]

1 minute ago, base698 said:

I am accountable to my family and three young children.  Children are a tremendous amount of work.  I do not have the capacity or resources  to care for someone else's decision to bring their family to another country.

So why are you accusing anyone of awful reading comprehension for taking that at face value? You said you don’t care, he shared his opinion of you not caring, you attacked him for falsely claiming you don’t care, and now have explicitly reiterated that you do in fact.., not care. 

So what’s your damn problem?

[base698 19]

1 minute ago, jakee said:

You said you don’t care, he shared his opinion of you not caring, you attacked him for falsely claiming you don’t care, and now have explicitly reiterated that you do in fact.., not care. 

You're still being disingenuous.  I could bring up plenty of grievances you are unaware and uninformed and say, gotcha! 

Just because the media covers immigration as an issue doesn't mean I or anyone else has to place it on our list of important things. 

 

 

[jakee 1,500]

19 minutes ago, base698 said:

You're still being disingenuous.  I could bring up plenty of grievances you are unaware and uninformed and say, gotcha! 

Just because the media covers immigration as an issue doesn't mean I or anyone else has to place it on our list of important things. 

You are outright lying. The media didn't say Trump would take radical measures against immigrants, Trump said it. Further, your response to Joe was that he was being disingenuous to say you don't care about immigrants. That was a lie - you keep saying you don't care about immigrants. So what's your damn problem?

BTW, the media covered covid and the effects of covid policy for years - but no-one trusts the media. So why do you care about covid policy? Since the media talked about it, it's obviously not true. And why do you care about homelessness? The media keeps talking about homelessness and no-one trusts the media, so that's not a real thing either. And war? The only things you know about the wars in Ukraine and Gaza come from the media. No-one trusts the media, so why do you care about what the media claims are foreign wars? Why are you letting the media drive your electoral priorities by blindly believing what they are telling you about the world?

[wmw999 2,456]

Simplistic analysis:
One set of media spends their time telling the viewers they’re OK people just the way they are, and that most people who have more problems either deserve it because of a poor decision in their past, or because they’re too far away to matter in their immediate world.

The other set of media is all about the problems in the world, and all the things they need to do in their daily life to atone for these, or help with them, or at least show that they care.

If you have enough, you can worry about others. If you don’t (even if that’s just perception because of the onslaught of advertising we all face of things “all our friends have!”), then you worry about building yourself up first.

And when each set of media is telling all their viewers that the other guy is lying, what else do you expect?

We’ve been convinced that our comfort (as opposed to our actual needs) is paramount.

Wendy P. 

[base698 19]

24 minutes ago, jakee said:

The media keeps talking about homelessness and no-one trusts the media, so that's not a real thing either

I found a dead homeless guy in front of my house I had to call in to 911.  My mother in law had to see a homeless guy masturbating on the muni when she visited.  I had to walk over needles and shit when I went to work.  

Occasionally when a coworker would complain about homeless issues they'd get a lecture that they were unhoused.  Orwellian.

Covid policy I'll keep brief.  Santa Monica, my former residence now has 50% less traffic than 2019.  I know people that lost businesses due to the closure and lock downs.  Instead of empathy the response is usually, you should have had cash on hand.  Kids lost almost two years of school and that generation will probably never recover.

Yes Trump brings up immigration and it sucks all the conversation out of the room away from topics he was weaker in.  The set of things to care about is infinite yet you seem to be stuck on one, immigration.

[jakee 1,500]

2 minutes ago, base698 said:

I found a dead homeless guy in front of my house I had to call in to 911.  My mother in law had to see a homeless guy masturbating on the muni when she visited.  I had to walk over needles and shit when I went to work.  

So two people and one place - but the media has you convinced it's a grave national problem. Why are you believeing the lying media? Why are you believing them when they tell you Trump will fix it when it is a state and municipal level issue? 

And I notice you didn't mention war. Why is war an issue for you when it's only the media and entrenched political establishment who are telling you that wars are happening? 

5 minutes ago, base698 said:

Yes Trump brings up immigration and it sucks all the conversation out of the room away from topics he was weaker in.  The set of things to care about is infinite yet you seem to be stuck on one, immigration.

I'm stuck on you telling someone he deliberately misread your post when he was in fact directly responding to what you said.

[JoeWeber 2,734]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

You completely miss the point. He didn’t say he was troubled because you voted for Trump in order to victimise it migrants. He said he’s troubled that you voted for Trump in spite of that because you don’t care about them. Which is exactly what you said - you don’t care. 

Thanks for clarifying my point.

[nigel99 501]

12 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Simplistic analysis:
One set of media spends their time telling the viewers they’re OK people just the way they are, and that most people who have more problems either deserve it because of a poor decision in their past, or because they’re too far away to matter in their immediate world.

The other set of media is all about the problems in the world, and all the things they need to do in their daily life to atone for these, or help with them, or at least show that they care.

If you have enough, you can worry about others. If you don’t (even if that’s just perception because of the onslaught of advertising we all face of things “all our friends have!”), then you worry about building yourself up first.

And when each set of media is telling all their viewers that the other guy is lying, what else do you expect?

We’ve been convinced that our comfort (as opposed to our actual needs) is paramount.

Wendy P. 

No side is perfect. I’ve certainly seen blinkered views of reality on the left side of the US political spectrum. What strikes me about the right in the US is a complete lack of integrity that appears to be endemic. 

JD Vance can call Trump America’s Hitler and then be elected as his VP, Lindsey Graham and McConnel who twist and turn in the wind. They appear to lack any conviction and principles- and it’s acceptable.

I find the parallels here quite interesting, we’ve essentially had one regular right wing poster for a while, and even then outright support for Trump was fairly muted. Since the election the number of posters has spiked and they are happy to openly support Trump now. Although, there is still a general lack of conviction towards principles of integrity and morality (how hard is it to avoid saying rape is wrong and make excuses for it?)

[wmw999 2,456]

11 minutes ago, base698 said:

I found a dead homeless guy in front of my house I had to call in to 911.  My mother in law had to see a homeless guy masturbating on the muni when she visited.  I had to walk over needles and shit when I went to work.  

Occasionally when a coworker would complain about homeless issues they'd get a lecture that they were unhoused.  Orwellian.

Covid policy I'll keep brief.  Santa Monica, my former residence now has 50% less traffic than 2019.  I know people that lost businesses due to the closure and lock downs.  Instead of empathy the response is usually, you should have had cash on hand.  Kids lost almost two years of school and that generation will probably never recover.

Yes Trump brings up immigration and it sucks all the conversation out of the room away from topics he was weaker in.  The set of things to care about is infinite yet you seem to be stuck on one, immigration.

Do you have any ideas of what to do about homeless populations? Because most of them are US citizens, so we can’t just send them to Mexico. We send money and guns to Mexico for drugs, they send us drugs and the people displaced by all the cartel violence. Seems like a lose-lose situation, right?

I don’t have awesome ideas; many of the homeless are the kinds of people who struggled for decent grades in school; ADHD, mental illness, crummy homes, reading difficulties, prejudice. There aren’t as many jobs for people who don’t have the basics. Ask a garage these days if they want a guy who’s good with his hands but can’t deal well with the computer diagnostics; or just about any other job. Especially in the much-vaunted tech sector  

We as a people need to be willing to pay the price so that the vast majority of our citizens and legal residents can get ahead, and foresee a better future in some way for their kids. The reason for all the success stories you hear about immigrants is because they’ve already sacrificed everything; many really are starting out with nothing. But we need US-based basic industry, and I don’t know how we can compete with countries with such lower standards of living.

Maybe supported industries in some of the emptied-out towns, but then you still have to get the goods out to market.

And yes, I do think global warming is an issue. Maybe even as big as some of the more strident say it is — but it’s not as immediate as the doctor bills, the broken car, or the inability to find an apartment 

Wendy P.