And just like that…

[metalslug 36]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

It's cute that you think Trump appoints a team to thoroughly review the minutiae of the cases he pardons.

Almost as cute as your belief that the convictions could not possibly have been prejudiced by location and circumstance. Yourself and jakee; having issues with what has not even happened yet. If it reliably and objectively emerges later that Trump single-handedly decided each pardon without a team or without much scrutiny then you're welcome to reaffirm your point.

With perhaps very few exceptions; every president who has ever issued a pardon undermines the justice system in some way and is ultimately done so on the subjective opinion of that president or advisors whom he trusts. While we both may yet disapprove of some of the pardons to come, Trump would not be the only president to have exercised that prerogative.

[jakee 1,489]

42 minutes ago, metalslug said:

With perhaps very few exceptions; every president who has ever issued a pardon undermines the justice system in some way and is ultimately done so on the subjective opinion of that president or advisors whom he trusts. While we both may yet disapprove of some of the pardons to come, Trump would not be the only president to have exercised that prerogative.

That’s just the kind of strong language that makes me think you’ll honour your promise to be appalled and not just shrug and say ‘eh who cares everyone does it’.

[nigel99 471]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

That’s just the kind of strong language that makes me think you’ll honour your promise to be appalled and not just shrug and say ‘eh who cares everyone does it’.

Isn’t that step 2 of Bill’s model?

[billvon 2,990]

2 hours ago, metalslug said:

Almost as cute as your belief that the convictions could not possibly have been prejudiced by location and circumstance.

Of course they could have been.  But it is a very safe bet that Trump does not think about such things.  He thinks about rewarding loyalists, as evidenced by his cabinet appointments.  Only a fool would claim he makes such decisions by considering the merits of the appointment (or pardon.)

Let's take a single example - Duke Cunningham.  He went to jail because he solicited bribes before awarding defense contracts.  Part of the evidence was a list, written in his own handwriting and on his own stationery, that showed the value of the defense contracts and how much in bribes it would take to get each one.  The top one had the annotation "BT" next to it which stood for Buoy Toy, a boat he wished to have purchased for him.  All told he received approximately $2.4 million in bribes.

You going to argue that that was an unfair conviction, prejudiced by location and circumstance?  Or was it more likely that Trump saw a potential republican donor and supporter and pardoned him for that reason?

[nigel99 471]

13 minutes ago, billvon said:

Of course they could have been.  But it is a very safe bet that Trump does not think about such things.  He thinks about rewarding loyalists, as evidenced by his cabinet appointments.  Only a fool would claim he makes such decisions by considering the merits of the appointment (or pardon.)

Let's take a single example - Duke Cunningham.  He went to jail because he solicited bribes before awarding defense contracts.  Part of the evidence was a list, written in his own handwriting and on his own stationery, that showed the value of the defense contracts and how much in bribes it would take to get each one.  The top one had the annotation "BT" next to it which stood for Buoy Toy, a boat he wished to have purchased for him.  All told he received approximately $2.4 million in bribes.

You going to argue that that was an unfair conviction, prejudiced by location and circumstance?  Or was it more likely that Trump saw a potential republican donor and supporter and pardoned him for that reason?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States

A quick scan of pardons shows that most Presidents have made politically motivated pardons. On both sides (Clinton pardoned a relative). I only read from Reagan onwards.

Biden seems to stand out as having far less than others. Considering Trump has largely outmanoeuvred the legal system I believe Biden should pardon him. Trump would never be able to manipulate the courts into an innocent verdict and it would leave his guilt to the judgement of history.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

7 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States

A quick scan of pardons shows that most Presidents have made politically motivated pardons. On both sides (Clinton pardoned a relative). I only read from Reagan onwards.

Biden seems to stand out as having far less than others. Considering Trump has largely outmanoeuvred the legal system I believe Biden should pardon him. Trump would never be able to manipulate the courts into an innocent verdict and it would leave his guilt to the judgement of history.

But Trump was going to make America Great Again and drain the swamp and get rid of the deep state.

Is this not part of that?

Edited November 20, 2024 by SkyDekker

[nigel99 471]

7 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

But Trump was going to make America Great Again and drain the swamp and get rid of the deep state.

Is this not part of that?

God forbid I find myself defending Trump. But it’s disingenuous to single him out for typical political behaviour.

It gives credence to his followers that he is being persecuted.

 Give Trump credit he IS draining the swamp of traditional politicians. He never promised that he wouldn’t replace the swamp with the biggliest sewage pit!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 minute ago, nigel99 said:

God forbid I find myself defending Trump. But it’s disingenuous to single him out for typical political behaviour.

It gives credence to his followers that he is being persecuted.

Like Biden is spending too much time at his beach house? 

[JoeWeber 2,720]

3 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Like Biden is spending too much time at his beach house? 

Or his basement? Too bad we don’t live in a sane world where our senators and representatives truly were patriotic. Then we might see a handful of R’s from both chambers saying they were caucusing with the democrats for a while. Wouldn’t that just tilt the planet a bit?

[jakee 1,489]

7 hours ago, nigel99 said:

God forbid I find myself defending Trump. But it’s disingenuous to single him out for typical political behaviour.

It gives credence to his followers that he is being persecuted.

There's a dfference between pardoning people connected to you who don't deserve it, and pardoning people for crimes they did on your behalf - let alone crimes against the fabric of democracy. It's funny how often this comes up with Trump but again, not even Nixon did that (I think).

Also, coplaining about Trump being singled out doesn't make much sense. He is the President elect now, so his misdeeds will be talked about more than those of previous Presidents now. That's not unfair, it's plain common sense. Were stupid pardons from other Presidents complained about at the time? Yes. The Rs were still complaining about Clinton and Marc Rich when Obama was in office. They can't hve it both ways.

 

BTW, I also think it's a mistake to believe you can mollify the Trumpists with a pardon. They would simply take it as confirmation that they were right all along, the prosecutions of Trump definitely were politically driven, and they'll be even more zealously in favour of Trump weaponising the Justice department as retribution.

[nigel99 471]

6 minutes ago, jakee said:

There's a dfference between pardoning people connected to you who don't deserve it, and pardoning people for crimes they did on your behalf - let alone crimes against the fabric of democracy. It's funny how often this comes up with Trump but again, not even Nixon did that (I think).

Also, coplaining about Trump being singled out doesn't make much sense. He is the President elect now, so his misdeeds will be talked about more than those of previous Presidents now. That's not unfair, it's plain common sense. Were stupid pardons from other Presidents complained about at the time? Yes. The Rs were still complaining about Clinton and Marc Rich when Obama was in office. They can't hve it both ways.

 

BTW, I also think it's a mistake to believe you can mollify the Trumpists with a pardon. They would simply take it as confirmation that they were right all along, the prosecutions of Trump definitely were politically driven, and they'll be even more zealously in favour of Trump weaponising the Justice department as retribution.

I don’t disagree with any of your points.

I don’t expect a pardon to placate the MAGA nuts. But it puts him alongside Nixon in history and maybe history will be unkind to him.

Of course if the US goes the way I think it is, the winners right history and a pardon will be seen as Trump triumphant over the evil democrats