Neo-Nazi March in Ohio

[nigel99 471]

1 hour ago, metalslug said:

But here in the real world, what I actually said was that Trump supporters are very unlikely to agree that they are 'in bed with' extremists and are even less likely to care that anyone here might believe that they are. If your extrapolation of that opinion results in myself being an extremist then go have fun with that. You only have this forum to convince.

I agree with you.

No Al Queada member would ever claim that Bin Laden or themselves were extremists - purely dedicated to the cause.

Trump and his followers are no different. 

[metalslug 36]

25 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

I agree with you.

No Al Queada member would ever claim that Bin Laden or themselves were extremists - purely dedicated to the cause.

Trump and his followers are no different. 

By mainstream Islamic beliefs; Al Queda are considered extremists even by most Islamic believers as extremists are most commonly regarded as having opinions significantly different from mainstream thought. Trump and his followers are a significantly larger group than Al Queada and could now be considered as mainstream since the election, or at least no more 'extreme' than liberals are. We can perhaps reasonably assume that not all Republicans are Trump supporters even if they voted for Trump (in so far as they voted for Republican policies) although we cannot reliably know where that percentage lies. Calling them extremists is opinion and if you'd like to portray that as fact then the burden of proof is on you.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

10 minutes ago, metalslug said:

By mainstream Islamic beliefs; Al Queda are considered extremists even by most Islamic believers as extremists are most commonly regarded as having opinions significantly different from mainstream thought. Trump and his followers are a significantly larger group than Al Queada and could now be considered as mainstream since the election, or at least no more 'extreme' than liberals are. We can perhaps reasonably assume that not all Republicans are Trump supporters even if they voted for Trump (in so far as they voted for Republican policies) although we cannot reliably know where that percentage lies. Calling them extremists is opinion and if you'd like to portray that as fact then the burden of proof is on you.

Cancelling entire departments is an extremist position

Randomly cutting 75% of social security is an extremist position

Mass deportations after declaring a national emergency is an extremist position

Mass denaturalization is an extremist position

Proposing a person who has been accused of having sex with a minor to AG, is an extremist position

Those are core positions of the Trump cabinet or hangers on, which does indeed make Trump supporters extremists.

Edited November 20, 2024 by SkyDekker

[nigel99 471]

5 minutes ago, metalslug said:

By mainstream Islamic beliefs; Al Queda are considered extremists even by most Islamic believers as extremists are most commonly regarded as having opinions significantly different from mainstream thought. Trump and his followers are a significantly larger group than Al Queada and could now be considered as mainstream since the election, or at least no more 'extreme' than liberals are. We can perhaps reasonably assume that not all Republicans are Trump supporters even if they voted for Trump (in so far as they voted for Republican policies) although we cannot reliably know where that percentage lies. Calling them extremists is opinion and if you'd like to portray that as fact then the burden of proof is on you.

The rise of extremism is a global problem. I would agree that there is a radical left that is very vocal and influences policy (big problem here in Australia), By the same token the radical right is every bit as vocal and influences policy. 

If the majority of a population become extremists, I would argue that is still the case. You’re from South Africa originally? I’m from Zimbabwe and I think it’s fair to say that the mainstream white culture was extremely racist, by world standards. That didn’t make it any less of an extreme view. Similarly examples from Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia etc.

We could argue over who is to blame and which side is simply reacting to the excesses of the other. Here in Aus it is clear that currently the extreme left is driving a backlash from neo nazi extremists. 

[SkyDekker 1,465]

8 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

We could argue over who is to blame and which side is simply reacting to the excesses of the other. Here in Aus it is clear that currently the extreme left is driving a backlash from neo nazi extremists. 

That is the issue though. What is the extreme left position and what is the nazi extremist position? Are they really equally extreme?

Is wanting to tax billionaires so society can have more the same as wanting to kill specific races?

Is caring about the LGBTQ community the same as wanting to take their rights away?

What in your mind makes these extremist positions equivalent?

[nigel99 471]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

That is the issue though. What is the extreme left position and what is the nazi extremist position? Are they really equally extreme?

Is wanting to tax billionaires so society can have more the same as wanting to kill specific races?

Is caring about the LGBTQ community the same as wanting to take their rights away?

What in your mind makes these extremist positions equivalent?

I’m not sure I’m saying they are equivalent. I’m left leaning and more likely to agree with the views of the left. 

A 12 month jail sentence for a nazi salute is extreme. 

Walking a very fine line, and not entirely confident I can communicate this correctly. But amplifying a minority to place them on a pedestal is an extreme position. Absolutely vulnerable groups should be treated with respect and dignity and not discriminated against.
 

The best example I can think of is transgender people in sport. They should not be discriminated against, but when biological women are upstaged by a transgender person (for example swimming) I have a problem. There are shades of grey though. A top Aussie skydiver is transgender and holds world records. Her biological makeup doesn’t give her an unfair advantage in skydiving, so I don’t have a problem. 

I believe sexuality should be kept out of the workplace. When organisations decorate with rainbows and gay pride symbols on gay pride day I have an issue with it. Admittedly my workplace also does international women’s day and the non gender based mental health days. Yesterday was apparently International men’s day and not a peep. Yet there is a crisis in young men (my son’s best friend took his life last Wednesday at 19 years old. It’s the 5th suicide in 6 years among my son’s friends. 

[SkyDekker 1,465]

2 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

The best example I can think of is transgender people in sport. They should not be discriminated against, but when biological women are upstaged by a transgender person (for example swimming) I have a problem.

Agreed. I have long advocated for testosterone limits are something along those lines to take gender issues out of it.

3 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

I believe sexuality should be kept out of the workplace. When organisations decorate with rainbows and gay pride symbols on gay pride day I have an issue with it.

To me gay pride isn't about sexuality, but about celebrating the fact a marginalized group of people is getting equal rights.

 

4 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

Yesterday was apparently International men’s day and not a peep. Yet there is a crisis in young men (my son’s best friend took his life last Wednesday at 19 years old. It’s the 5th suicide in 6 years among my son’s friends. 

Agreed. I struggle with the lack of recognition for that as well. Probably better to just get rid of all these special days and months etc.

[nigel99 471]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Agreed. I struggle with the lack of recognition for that as well. Probably better to just get rid of all these special days and months etc.

Yes. With the exception of international skydivers day

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 minute ago, nigel99 said:

Yes. With the exception of international skydivers day

Isn't that steak & BJ day?

[gowlerk 2,190]

2 hours ago, metalslug said:

All of them? Do you have actual evidence of that? Sworn statements or MAGA hats on each one?  ...In as much as all violent Antifa and BLM rioters are considered to be liberals? 

This is why Trump made the original statement that there were fine people on both sides. Of a demonstration event to support confederate worship. Those people are his voters. He cannot bring himself to condemn them. He failed to do what a POTUS is supposed to do. Therefore demonstrating his true colours once again. We all know that the man is unworthy. The only real disagreement is over how much that matters.

[metalslug 36]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Those are core positions of the Trump cabinet or hangers on, which does indeed make Trump supporters extremists.

"75% of social security" ?  Do you have a citation for that from a Republican source? 

Allowing a massive amount of illegal migrants into the country can be seen as an extremist position.  'Hey Presto' -  All liberals are extremists! (See how easy that was?)

I'm not thrilled with some of his ideas either,  although the term 'extremism' is still subject to evidence that these ideas are not mainstream for the current electorate. I've not yet seen you present that.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

14 hours ago, metalslug said:

I'm not thrilled with some of his ideas either,  although the term 'extremism' is still subject to evidence that these ideas are not mainstream for the current electorate. I've not yet seen you present that.

Half of them voted for it, isn't that mainstream enough?

14 hours ago, metalslug said:

75% of social security" ?  Do you have a citation for that from a Republican source? 

I misstated that. It is eliminating 75% of the workforce based on whether your last and/or first digit of your Social Security Number is off or even. But also an extremist position.

[riggerrob 643]

17 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

That is the issue though. What is the extreme left position and what is the nazi extremist position? Are they really equally extreme? ..... What in your mind makes these extremist positions equivalent?

When extreme left-wingers and extreme right-wingers go full-circle, the general public cannot understand the difference between violent socialists and violent antifa black shirts.

As Canadians, we hate political violence.

I can still remember Alfred Pinisch, who died in August 1964 during a botched FLQ raid at International Firearms in Montreal Alfred was a friend of my father and we met a dozen times before his untimely death.

[kallend 2,026]

20 hours ago, metalslug said:

All of them? Do you have actual evidence of that? Sworn statements or MAGA hats on each one?  ...In as much as all violent Antifa and BLM rioters are considered to be liberals? 

Trump made the bed.  You and the new Nazis and fascists  chose to lie in it.  I hope you enjoy the company.

[billvon 2,990]

18 hours ago, metalslug said:

Allowing a massive amount of illegal migrants into the country can be seen as an extremist position. 

Evicting all the people who currently supply us with food for next to no wages is an even more extremist (and foolish) position.

BTW I am sure that right wing media doesn't cover this, but illegal immigration is down by over 75% over the past year.  And it would surely be extremist to claim that therefore we are "allowing a massive amount of illegal migrants into the country."

[metalslug 36]

6 hours ago, billvon said:

Evicting all the people who currently supply us with food for next to no wages is an even more extremist (and foolish) position.

BTW I am sure that right wing media doesn't cover this, but illegal immigration is down by over 75% over the past year.  And it would surely be extremist to claim that therefore we are "allowing a massive amount of illegal migrants into the country."

It's gobsmacking that you can't see how absurd your statement is. Who do think has been running your country for the last four years?  WTF do you think has been happening during the first three of those years?  It's like breaking the dam, flooding the valley below, then rebuilding 75% of the wall and asking to be given credit for it.

[metalslug 36]

11 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Half of them voted for it, isn't that mainstream enough?

Yes. That's precisely my point. Mainstream and extremist are mutually exclusive. The recent election outcome thereby provides argument that liberals may now been termed 'extremist' as less than half voted against it.

[metalslug 36]

11 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

I misstated that. It is eliminating 75% of the workforce based on whether your last and/or first digit of your Social Security Number is off or even. But also an extremist position.

I don't believe than any of us here realistically think they would actually do that or achieve that even if they tried to. Trump is known to speak in wild exaggerations and I doubt that Musk got to where he has in the world by being a lunatic. Do you remember when some liberals were suggesting that Biden should resign early so that Harris can 'mess with the MAGA minds'?  These cabinet appointments and related hyperbole are Trump's "hold my beer" moment. The size of government has too much inertia to move it fast enough over the next four years.

[metalslug 36]

On 11/20/2024 at 11:10 AM, nigel99 said:

I think it’s fair to say that the mainstream white culture was extremely racist, by world standards. That didn’t make it any less of an extreme view. Similarly examples from Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia etc.

I agree, since these were small populations relative to the world population, although you're still on a slippery slope there. Extremism remains largely subjective. You can collectively pool all the 'liberal' countries of the world and say "These nations see Republicans as extremists!" and someone else can pool together Italy, Argentina, perhaps Canada soon and possibly some 'enemy of the West' countries and say "These nations think liberals are extremists!". The traditional use of the word 'extremist' should, IMO, be used in a context of a small minority outlook, so as to avoid conflating white hoods and raised salutes with mainstream conservatives and likewise conflating violent left radicals with mainstream liberals.

[billvon 2,990]

1 hour ago, metalslug said:

Who do think has been running your country for the last four years?

Lawmaking body - republicans
Law approving body - democrats
Law nullifying body - republicans
Administration - democrats

Note that the democrats tried to get a border security bill passed a year ago.  Republicans killed it.  Did FOX News forget to mention that to you?

Quote

It's like breaking the dam, flooding the valley below, then rebuilding 75% of the wall and asking to be given credit for it.

Yep.  It's like a once-in-a-1000-years storm destroys a dam (storms which are happening every few years now, of course) and then you have to decide what to do.  In your scenario, democrats propose a fix, republicans veto it because drowning people tend to vote republican, and the democrats STILL fix it.  

Once Trump is in charge, of course, he will promise a beautiful new dam in two weeks, the best dam anyone has ever seen.  Then the next storm will come and kill a thousand people, and he will blame Obama.

[nigel99 471]

42 minutes ago, metalslug said:

I agree, since these were small populations relative to the world population, although you're still on a slippery slope there. Extremism remains largely subjective. You can collectively pool all the 'liberal' countries of the world and say "These nations see Republicans as extremists!" and someone else can pool together Italy, Argentina, perhaps Canada soon and possibly some 'enemy of the West' countries and say "These nations think liberals are extremists!". The traditional use of the word 'extremist' should, IMO, be used in a context of a small minority outlook, so as to avoid conflating white hoods and raised salutes with mainstream conservatives and likewise conflating violent left radicals with mainstream liberals.

Out of curiosity Wikipedia mentions extremism as tending to resort to violence, whereas radicals don’t. Extremists also won’t negotiate their position with the other side.

So perhaps it’s best to frame it as the radical left and radical right, with a minority of extremists in both camps. 

So your average MAGA supporter is probably radical while the Jan 6 crowd are extremists. 

The media and government thrive on creating moral panic and placing the spotlight on specific groups. For example we had an issue with young single mothers being demonised as welfare abusers and it got a lot of media attention. The problem was no worse than before, but it suddenly became a national talking point. This can make it very difficult to figure out if there is really an increase or simply something being in the spotlight.

Considering the US has not had a violent attack of the capital, prior to Jan 6 I believe that right wing extremism is on the rise.

This goes to the heart of why I like having people like yourself in SC. It makes for interesting discussions that make you think. 

[metalslug 36]

38 minutes ago, billvon said:

Lawmaking body - republicans
Law approving body - democrats
Law nullifying body - republicans
Administration - democrats

Note that the democrats tried to get a border security bill passed a year ago.  Republicans killed it.  Did FOX News forget to mention that to you?

You're still trying to sell that argument even after your own electorate saw it for the bullshit that it is?  Barely two posts back you had claimed that Biden's administration had lowered illegal migration by 75% even though that bill did not pass. How did he do that? ..because the bill was never needed, it was BS legislation purely for the purpose of misdirecting blame after the proverbial horse had bolted. Executive orders were already in place when Biden took office. He could have left them in place. He did not. Your electorate knows this. It's also somewhat laughable that anyone can even spitball that 75% figure since the current administration have only a vague estimate of how many migrants they have let in.

[kallend 2,026]

8 hours ago, nigel99 said:

 

Considering the US has not had a violent attack of the capital, prior to Jan 6 I believe that right wing extremism is on the rise.

 

August 24, 1814.

[nigel99 471]

38 minutes ago, kallend said:

August 24, 1814.

Ok well it had been a while. Some of us aren’t old enough to remember the first time

[olofscience 480]

8 hours ago, metalslug said:

You're still trying to sell that argument even after your own electorate saw it for the bullshit that it is?

Popularity or voting doesn't really invalidate a particular argument. Only facts do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Edited November 21, 2024 by olofscience