15 Minute Cities

[turtlespeed 219]

Good Idea or Bad?

Should it be a mandate?

Should you be fined if you go outside the guidelines?

 

ETA: I was thinking of the conversation Wendy and I were having about slums.  I wonder if this would improve them, or make them worse.

Edited December 21, 2024 by turtlespeed

[wmw999 2,439]

I live in one. I really like it. However, housing is unaffordable for many locally, so it's not a 15-minute city for them.

NYC, with its local neighborhoods, is very much a 15-minute city in a whole lot of ways. Maybe letting people vote with their feet is the way to go.

Wendy P.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

Just now, wmw999 said:

Maybe letting people vote with their feet is the way to go.

Certainly, and why not? Voting with any other appendage hasn't worked out.

[jakee 1,489]

2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Should you be fined if you go outside the guidelines?

Should who be fined?

[wmw999 2,439]

2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Should you be fined if you go outside the guidelines?

No, but if it benefits the country (eg less transportation cost, less pollution to remediate, less trash to dispose of, etc), then I don’t see any issue with rewarding it with grants and things like that. 

Wendy P. 

[kallend 2,026]

11 hours ago, wmw999 said:

I live in one. I really like it. However, housing is unaffordable for many locally, so it's not a 15-minute city for them.

NYC, with its local neighborhoods, is very much a 15-minute city in a whole lot of ways. Maybe letting people vote with their feet is the way to go.

Wendy P.

My (late) sister-in-law lived on the upper west side of Manhattan.  I think you could buy just about anything imaginable within a 10 block walk from her apartment, plus find any current movie, religious denomination, several theaters, bars, etc.  

We aren't too bad where I live in Chicago, especially where it comes to bars.

[turtlespeed 219]

6 hours ago, kallend said:

My (late) sister-in-law lived on the upper west side of Manhattan.  I think you could buy just about anything imaginable within a 10 block walk from her apartment, plus find any current movie, religious denomination, several theaters, bars, etc.  

We aren't too bad where I live in Chicago, especially where it comes to bars.

 I'm sure bars aren't the issue.

It may just be fear mongering, but I'm hearing things like - If you drive outside your 15' boundary geofence, you get charged carbon credits.

I'm not against the idea of 15' cities, but only as a voluntary imposition to ones self. 

What would that do to the less affluent areas?

Would implementation increase or decrease gentrification?

[turtlespeed 219]

17 hours ago, jakee said:

Should who be fined?

People designated to live in side the hypothetical geofence.

I should have said if you drive outside of it.

[billvon 2,989]

18 hours ago, wmw999 said:

No, but if it benefits the country (eg less transportation cost, less pollution to remediate, less trash to dispose of, etc), then I don’t see any issue with rewarding it with grants and things like that. 

In practice, what you are talking about (urban growth boundaries) are enforced by:

1) Not issuing building permits for certain types of construction outside the boundary.  Thus you'd be able to get a permit for a Christmas tree farm or a site for farmer's markets, but not for an apartment building or a factory.

2) Only funding services (sewer, water, power, new roads, fire protection etc) inside the boundary.  Outside such services are available but cost $$$.

[wmw999 2,439]

4 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

It may just be fear mongering, but I'm hearing things like - If you drive outside your 15' boundary geofence, you get charged carbon credits.

Where did you hear it? I'd bet someplace like OAN or Blaze News. Because it's bullshit. 

I live in one of the most liberal cities in America. We don't do that. We don't even consider that.

And congestion pricing in cities (as happens in London) is about traffic, then pollution -- today problems, rather than being about carbon credits.

Wendy P.

[billvon 2,989]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

Where did you hear it? I'd bet someplace like OAN or Blaze News. Because it's bullshit. 

That's what passes for "facts" in some circles today.

"Well I'm hearing things like . . . "
"Everyone is saying that . . . "
"There's a lot of talk that . . . "
"It's well known that . . . "

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

That's what passes for "facts" in some circles today.

"Well I'm hearing things like . . . "
"Everyone is saying that . . . "
"There's a lot of talk that . . . "
"It's well known that . . . "

Hi Bill,

Or, my mother's favorite:  'Well, they say . . . '

And, when I would ask her, 'Who is they,' she would say:  'Well you know , , , '

Jerry Baumchen

[jimjumper 25]

I’d be one to say that. I live rurally in SoCal and am/was on the local Community Council. The residents here put up with exactly what you mentioned as services not provided. Most residents have private wells which the local Board of Supervisors wishes to meter (commercial wells are already metered and taxed) for taxes. Septic is septic tanks and leach lines. I live at the end of a mile of dirt road that is maintained by myself and other residents. Dumped trash on that road is also our responsibility. My fire insurance has quadrupled in the past 5 years. Most people have backup generators because power outages are so frequent. A Trash pickup contract is required or the cost is added to your property taxes ($144 a month) by Code Enforcement. It’s been designated Wine country and the building regulations give them priority for permits. Mail theft is so rampant that the boxes just sit with doors open because there is no enforcement or replacements. Everyone that can afford it has a PO Box at $240 a year. It’s tough to convince residents to believe that the state and local governments aren’t on a campaign to force them to live in a city. Remember, it’s not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

[riggerrob 643]

22 hours ago, billvon said:

In practice, what you are talking about (urban growth boundaries) are enforced by:

1) Not issuing building permits for certain types of construction outside the boundary.  Thus you'd be able to get a permit for a Christmas tree farm or a site for farmer's markets, but not for an apartment building or a factory.

2) .....

That sounds like the Green Belt surrounding Ottawa or the Agricultural Land Reserve surrounding Vancouver (Fraser River Delta). The Green Belt is a kilometer-wide strip of farmland separating the city core from mid-outer suburbs. Sure the carrots and bicycle paths are nice, but it adds a kilometer to everyone's commute. The city tries to encourage people to commute by bus.

Sadly, some group of religious fanatics or a filthy rich guy always manages to get a building permit to erect a huge church or a McMansion on flood plain land that is better used to grow carrots. Twenty years down the road, those ^%$#@! are going to try and sue the municipality when their huge building floods in May. &^%$#@!

I suspect that those people have not read "The Hundred Mile Diet."

Edited December 23, 2024 by riggerrob
add a word

[turtlespeed 219]

On 12/22/2024 at 3:26 PM, wmw999 said:

Where did you hear it? I'd bet someplace like OAN or Blaze News. Because it's bullshit. 

I live in one of the most liberal cities in America. We don't do that. We don't even consider that.

And congestion pricing in cities (as happens in London) is about traffic, then pollution -- today problems, rather than being about carbon credits.

Wendy P.

Whats with the stupid assumptions?  No - it was an article linked through apple news.

I'll try to find it if you stop with the ignorant assumptions and bets.

Edited December 23, 2024 by turtlespeed

[jakee 1,489]

On 12/22/2024 at 5:11 PM, turtlespeed said:

People designated to live in side the hypothetical geofence.

I should have said if you drive outside of it.

Ask me how I knew you were talking about the 15 minute city conspiracy theory, not the actual 15 minute city planning concept?

Ah you don't need to ask - because it's you. It's always going to be the stupidest possible option with you.

[turtlespeed 219]

On 12/22/2024 at 3:26 PM, wmw999 said:

Where did you hear it? I'd bet someplace like OAN or Blaze News. Because it's bullshit. 

I live in one of the most liberal cities in America. We don't do that. We don't even consider that.

And congestion pricing in cities (as happens in London) is about traffic, then pollution -- today problems, rather than being about carbon credits.

Wendy P.

So if they choose to, the government could impose fines.  Is it likely?  Who knows.  How many times has the government gone back on what they said they would do?

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/edmonton-council-passes-district-plans-clarifies-freedom-of-movement-amid-15-minute-cities-fears

[jakee 1,489]

3 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

So if they choose to, the government could impose fines.  Is it likely?  Who knows.  How many times has the government gone back on what they said they would do?

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/edmonton-council-passes-district-plans-clarifies-freedom-of-movement-amid-15-minute-cities-fears

The government could fine you for any damn thing you could imagine. But here's the thing, and I want you to concentrate real hard because you might just be capable of understanding this one, just because you've imagined it doesn't mean it's a real plan that someone has.

I mean damn dude, only you could post an article saying 'no that's not what a 15 minute city is' as evidence that you're right, that is what a 15 minute city is.

[turtlespeed 219]

12 minutes ago, jakee said:

Ask me how I knew you were talking about the 15 minute city conspiracy theory, not the actual 15 minute city planning concept?

Ah you don't need to ask - because it's you. It's always going to be the stupidest possible option with you.

Because, once again, you fail to consider all the options.

You think the government has your best interest in mind.

So incredibly naiive.

[turtlespeed 219]

4 minutes ago, jakee said:

The government could fine you for any damn thing you could imagine. But here's the thing, and I want you to concentrate real hard because you might just be capable of understanding this one, just because you've imagined it doesn't mean it's a real plan that someone has.

I mean damn dude, only you could post an article saying 'no that's not what a 15 minute city is' as evidence that you're right, that is what a 15 minute city is.

First of all, I asked questions I didn't make statements that asserted the rumprs were true.

Let me ask you this:

When in your lifetime has a government let go of control.  Once they have it, its theirs, and you gave it to them, willingly or not.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

46 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

First of all, I asked questions I didn't make statements that asserted the rumprs were true.

Let me ask you this:

When in your lifetime has a government let go of control.  Once they have it, its theirs, and you gave it to them, willingly or not.

in Rwanda and Haiti the government has almost zero control. I doubt that is what you want. So the government having soe level of control is probably a good thing. The question is how much, and what checks are in place.

Well, the current problem in the US is that elections can more or less be bought and controlled. You now have President Musk and his puppet stand in, together with a whole host of billionaires in cabinet.

Do you really think they are going to shift government in such a way that the middle class will grow and the rich won't get as rich?

[jaybird18c 22]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

in Rwanda and Haiti the government has almost zero control. I doubt that is what you want. So the government having soe level of control is probably a good thing. The question is how much, and what checks are in place.

Well, the current problem in the US is that elections can more or less be bought and controlled. You now have President Musk and his puppet stand in, together with a whole host of billionaires in cabinet.

Do you really think they are going to shift government in such a way that the middle class will grow and the rich won't get as rich?

And…you are Canadian. Why don’t you just fuck off?

[jakee 1,489]

57 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Because, once again, you fail to consider all the options.

Uh, yeah. I failed to consider you weren't talking about what a 15 minute city actually is because you obviously weren't talking about what a 15 minute city actually is. Come on dude, it's a real failure of yours to highlight that I never even considered that you might be discussing reality when you have already clarified that you are indeed discussing the conspiracy theory version.

Quote

You think the government has your best interest in mind.

So incredibly naiive.

Is that how naive you were in insisting that Trump cabinet members must be telling you the truth about what Trump was doing? How naive you were in not being able to think of a single reason why an administration insider would lie to you? Is that how naive we're talking?

Edited December 23, 2024 by jakee

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 minute ago, jaybird18c said:

And…you are Canadian. Why don’t you just fuck off?

Awwww, tough guy having trouble handling his emotions?

Need a safe space?

[jakee 1,489]

52 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

First of all, I asked questions I didn't make statements that asserted the rumprs were true.

You asked this question "Should you be fined if you go outside the guidelines?" Dude - the guidelines you were talking about don't exist. You didn't ask if the conspiracy theory was real, your question presupposed that the conspiracy theory version of a 15 minute city is what a 15 minute city is.