Hard decks, let's review....

[davelepka 4]

So twice in the last week we;'ve seen reports of two jumpers who severly busted their hard decks, and one of them ended in a fatality, with the other as close as it gets to a fataility.

Both jumpers were experienced, high time jumpers, and they both rode malfunctioning main canopies down below 1000ft, and then pulled the red handle.

In light of this, let's quickly review what the 'hard deck' is and what it means. More or less, this is the bottom line in terms of pulling the red handle. It's the lowest altitude you want to cutaway, and the way you determine your own hard deck is to start at the ground and calculate up from there.

How high do you want to be under an open reserve? Let's say 500ft is the lowest you want to be under an open canopy.

How long will take from pulling your reserve ripcord until you're under an open canopy? In a perfect world, it should be less than 300ft, but factor in a PC delay (spinrg loaded will do that) and let's call that 500ft.

How long will it take you to go from cutting away to pulling the reserve handle? You would hope it wouldn't be very much, but you might be spinning/flipping, your chest strap might be loose, you don't really know your descent rate under your malfunctioning main, etc, so give yourself 500ft.

So with that rough math, you come up with a 'safe' 1500ft. Note that you don't factor in anything like an RSL, AAD or Skyhook, as those are back-up devices, and if you use them in these calculations, you make them primary devices where their failure could cause you your life. If you plan for them to fail, when they work you end up with more altitude under your inflated reserve.

So you come up with 1500ft (as an example), and the idea now is that you need to be under a flying, controllable, landable canopy by that altitude or you need to take action, which of course, is doing your EPs. Now what I mean by 'landable' is that you are fully configured for landing in that you are not going to make any other chnages to your rig/canopy before landing. Slider is collapsed/stowed, brakes are unstowed, chest strap has been loosened, wings/swoop cords have been released, and anything else you do after opening and before landing is complete. You are essentially ready to land above your hard deck, so if you run into a problem configuring yourself to land, you still have altitude to cutaway.

Now what do you do if you have a problem under your hard deck? Well, one thing you don't do is cutaway. What you can do is pull your reserve handle and go for the 'more fabric out' plan. If you can get a clean reserve deployment, you might find that the 'problem' with your main becomes less of a problem. At the lower airspeed provided by an inflated resereve, the main might sort itself out or swing free of the rererve (downplane, or similar) at which point you can then pull the red handle. Another option might be to reel in the main, and stuff it between your legs to keep it clear of the open reserve.

In any case, the hard deck needs to be (in your mind) hard like cement. You need to build your entire skydive up from there, much like you built up to your hard deck from the ground. So if you have a 1500ft hard deck, and your canopy takes 800ft to open, you can add in time to indentify a mal, so call it 1200ft, and you can see that tossing your main PC much below 2700ft is going to start to put the squeeze on your plans in the altitude dept.

So with a 2700ft pull altitude, you can then add in the altitude you need to track away from your buddies. So 1200-1500ft for a smaller group, and closer to 2000ft for a larger group. What you end up with is a break off between 4000 and 5500 ft based on the group size.

The moral of the story is to remember that what you do in freefall is a game. It's a time-waster until you get down to the real business of saving your life, you need to leave the plane with your 'end-game' being your top priority, and everything you plan needs to revolve around that.

Have a hard deck, and respect the hell out of it. Leave yourself time to work and make mistakes like a human, and still have time to act above your hard deck. Remember that in a high speed mal, if you decide to cutaway at your hard deck, you're going to be well under by the time you actually clear your handles.

I had a good friend hit the ground with a partailly infalted reserve a few years back. He did not survive that impact, and if he had even 100ft more altitude, I'm confident his reserve would have been fully open and he would still be here today. Don't paint yourself into that same corner where your very survival comes down to a matter of feet.

[wmw999 2,447]

At your hard deck, you don't pull down on the other toggle to see if your canopy straightens out.
Etc.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

wmw999

At your hard deck, you don't pull down on the other toggle to see if your canopy straightens out.
Etc.

Wendy P.

Exactly...and you don't wait until you reach your hard deck to do it either.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Oyinko 0]

davelepka

Now what do you do if you have a problem under your hard deck? Well, one thing you don't do is cutaway. What you can do is pull your reserve handle and go for the 'more fabric out' plan

Would you please be more specific?

I learned at the AAF: absolutely no cutaway below 1000ft.

My hard deck is 2000ft. From this I know:
- i need to go straight for the reserve if nothing is out (main stuck in the bag or can't find PC...) if when I reach my hard deck.

- if I have something out like just the PC I will cutaway and go for the reserve.

But what if I have my main open with lines twist I won't be able to fix. Should I really not cutaway if I'am at 1800 feet?

[popsjumper 2]

popsjumper

***At your hard deck, you don't pull down on the other toggle to see if your canopy straightens out.
Etc.

Wendy P.

Exactly...and you don't wait until you reach your hard deck to do it either.

Boy, that was kind of a stoopid statement.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Hard deck altitude is different for different people...it's a personal decision based on the factors Dave listed above with an additional factor of your own personal comfort level. More experienced jumpers will know their gear better, know their normal procedures better and know their ability to handle emergency situations better than will students.

I like Dave's model in that you can put it on paper and hand it to somebody and they should "get it". YOU just have to plug in numbers that YOU are comfortable with....with the caveat that you are basing your comfort level on real self-evaluation. Don't let that ego get involved...it will only get you into trouble.

I use something similar in my own training but my method involves a lot of discussion leading the student to come up with his own realistic answers. We get to similar end-points using different methods.

So the question is...have you tried Dave's calculation method yet? Try it...you might like it.

As far as your mentions of 2000 and 1800ft....you're probably going to get some conflicting info here but with 60+ jumps it should be minimal


Now MY question is that you have 60+ jumps and as yet do not have a plan for these things already.
Why not? Please get on the ball and develop your plan, mentally practice your plan, practice it some more until it's drilled in.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

popsjumper

Hard deck altitude is different for different people...it's a personal decision based on the factors Dave listed above with an additional factor of your own personal comfort level. More experienced jumpers will know their gear better, know their normal procedures better and know their ability to handle emergency situations better than will students.

I like Dave's model in that you can put it on paper and hand it to somebody and they should "get it". YOU just have to plug in numbers that YOU are comfortable with....with the caveat that you are basing your comfort level on real self-evaluation. Don't let that ego get involved...it will only get you into trouble.

I use something similar in my own training but my method involves a lot of discussion leading the student to come up with his own realistic answers. We get to similar end-points using different methods.

So the question is...have you tried Dave's calculation method yet? Try it...you might like it.

As far as your mentions of 2000 and 1800ft....you're probably going to get some conflicting info here but with 60+ jumps it should be minimal


Now MY question is that you have 60+ jumps and as yet do not have a plan for these things already.
Why not? Please get on the ball and develop your plan, mentally practice your plan, practice it some more until it's drilled in.

With 60 jumps (or 114) you shouldn't be letting yourself get in that situation in the first place. If you're regularly checking your altimeter after the deploy and finding yourself below your hard deck, you should consider adjusting your pull altitude up a bit.

And with 114 jumps, I really shouldn't be giving advice either heh heh. But in this case I think it's pretty good (Pops can yell at me if he doesn't.)

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[dpreguy 14]

Your discussion is great, but in my opinion, the use of the term "hard deck" is not. I've heard some skydivers say the hard deck is when they want to throw their main pilot chute=main opening altitude, others say it is the altitude where a formation breaks off, others say when they should "pull silver' (pull the reserve handle whether it be a silver handle or a pillow reserve handle.) The point I'm making is that the use of an undefined coined term, instead of saying what you actually mean, will result in numbers of listeners believing the coined term to be something you didn't intend. I have heard skydivers say "What's your hard deck for tossing your main pilot chute?" What's your hard deck for breakoff?" etc etc.

By saying what you mean, there will be no error in understanding. I believe you should drop the undefined term "hard deck" completely, as it means different things to different people.

If by "hard deck" you mean "when you pull your reserve handle", then if you say that, it can't be misunderstood. If that term isn't used in the SIM, it is not helpful, nor, to my knowledge, is it taught in a first jump course. If it is going to be used then it should have a unambiguous definition. So far, it doesn't.

I like your discussion. It is good advice. At 176 feet per second, or faster, it's a race against time for sure.

[wmw999 2,447]

That's an excellent point. To me, the hard deck is the point at which, if I don't already have a good canopy above my head, I will take steps to get a good reserve above my head. I.e. no more messing around with the main (which should have been open by 2000), or waiting for it to finish its snivel. Even if I'm quite sure that it'll open after all.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[dpreguy 14]

I reread my post and thought it may have been negative. Not my intention. When Dave talks, I always read and learn!

[airtwardo 7]

dpreguy

I reread my post and thought it may have been negative. Not my intention. When Dave talks, I always read and learn!

I don't think anybody takes it negatively Walt, you raise an excellent point.

In fact, I had that very situation develop this weekend...I was doing solo RW and would've been last out - but there was a 3 person n00bway that wanted to pull at 5000'.

One of them asked me what my hard deck was...I must have looked confused at the question because he leaned in closer & said louder 'where you pulling?'

It was jumprun and we decided I'd go ahead of them & hum it down...in retrospect I probably should have followed up after landing. Definitely a lack of communication.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[potatoman 0]

The term hard deck, is just that, and should not be confused.

Out of your skydive, you have the following:

Break off Altitude
Opening Altitude (Deployment)
Hard deck Altitude - Hard deck not being the alititude where you should action, but rather the last possible place you ever want to be with a mal, but able to pull a last move, that should be by calculation, SAFE.

Here is my little config, just as an example:
Flat Fly
Break off at 4500 More than 3 people.
Open Altitude at 3500 (Deployment)
Now, high speed mal, 3sec, then action reserve.
Slow speed mal, assess, and be flying flat within 10sec, or go reserve.
Hard deck, 1500.

In this instance, I should never really even see my hard deck through. But you will have cases where you get a canopy colission, or get wrapped up in line twists due to heavy manuevre etc.

And now I know people are going to give it to me about the timings, and that you can have timelapse etc. But, it is not that easy keeping an eye on your alti when you are spinning, and most of us know out of experience how long is 3sec and 10sec.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

And now I know people are going to give it to me about the timings, and that you can have timelapse etc. But, it is not that easy keeping an eye on your alti when you are spinning, and most of us know out of experience how long is 3sec and 10sec.

Take it from a guy who's made 90% of his jumps with a camera, that you really don't know how long things take. When I say I jump with a camera, most of them are dedicated camera jumps, so I review all the footage after the jump. I literally can't count the number of times that an event during the jump that seemed to take a significant amount of time turned out to be nothing more than a blip on the radar in 'real time'.

The other factor is that the terms 'high speed' and 'low speed' are ambiguous. You don't know how fast you're actually going, so basing your decisions on time is not a valid measurement. I would suggest that it's far more accurate to look at your altimeter, and get a concrete answer as to your altitude as opposed to guessing at the length of time it's been and with your actual speed being a mystery.

Furthermore, I would suggest that giving yourself only 1000ft between break off and pull altitude is cutting things a little close. Once you factor in the time it takes to turn and begin your track and the time to wave-off and pull, you can see that you're left with something like 3 seconds of actual tracking time (and for the start of that you're just getting up to speed and not covering much ground).

[potatoman 0]

Agreed, and I know the blimp too well.

Yet, my way, and I do keep very well track of alti at, and during deployment.

Good post though.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[Divalent 136]

IMO there are a couple of decision altitudes that it would be wise to have pre-decided what you will do. The altitude you go staight to your reserve in free fall probably is different than the one you would chop at under a deployed main mal.

You want to pre-decide them because you don't want to spend a lot of time thinking about them after you've figured out what your issue is. Because every millisecond wasted weighing your options is just making the situation worse. And what you chose should depend somewhat on your particulars. For example, I have an AAD programed to fire at "750 ft", an RSL, and my main snivels a lot. I also jump where I might be directly above a 100+ ft hill. Based on that, and my own confort level and self assessment of my ability to react, here are my trigger altitudes for different situations:

1. In free fall (nothing out): (Choice would be either main or reserve)
1800 - straight to reserve (my main snivels a lot)

2. Main mal (but something out): (Choice would be either chop or just dump reserve)
1000 - above will chop; below just dump reserve

3. Another that I hope never to have to use, but which I have thought about, is if I have to make an emergency exit from a plane when low. Again, the purpose of predefining it is that you don't have to waste time weighing the pros and cons when time is prescious. For me, I've decided to use my main above 1500, and my reserve below that.

[popsjumper 2]

Good stuff, Peter!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[grimmie 186]

Remember about that 100+ foot hill if the spinny things stops and the pilot says jump.

[nigel99 474]

Very good post thanks Dave.

Some good food for thought.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[rohicks 2]

I had my first reserve ride this past saturday on my 13th jump. I broke off at 5,000 ft. from my coach, deployed at 4,000 ft., had a number of line twists and kicked out of two of them, mid way through the 3rd kick I had a brake fire and the canopy began spinning and diving right. I immediately decided I wasn't comfortable fighting this anymore and cut away. I had a reserve above my head by 2,800-3,000 ft. I stood the landing up, and landed in the student area. I think this was a packing error because I'm 90% certain my body position was stable and neutral on deployment. They recovered the main with one brake stowed, one undone, and all the lines twisted.

It's odd because the week before this jump i was reviewing my hard deck, and EPs everyday with the recent talk about this thread and the few incidents that have been posted. I was reviewing what I would do if in that situation and it payed off. I didn't hesitate and I wasn't even nervous. The reserve ride had me more nervous than the malfunction and the cut away.

I was taught in AFF anything at or below 1,000 ft. to go straight to reserve, and to get as much fabric above your head and to not cut away. 2,500ft. is my decision altitude (meaning my hard deck). At 2,500ft., if in a malfunction that i can not recover from, that is when I will make the decision to cut away and go for my reserve. If I don't have a main canopy that I can safely land or control.

I'm still very new to this sport, and while I already have a cut away logged. I will always stick to what my instructors told me in AFF. It's the safest way to go IMO. Certainly a good topic to always keep in your mind when headed to the DZ, and thanks to Dave for bringing it up because it literally helped save my life last weekend.

One thing that I do know by speaking of experience from having to cut away is that no matter what be altitude aware. I noticed how preoccupied I was with the malfunction that I didn't bother to check my altitude when I began to dive and spin. I just cut away not knowing what my cut away altitude was. Although I was aware that I deployed high enough to handle it. It certainly was a mistake I don't plan on making again if ever in that situation now that I know what it feels like.

[fencebuster 7]

At 13 jumps, 2500 is your "decide and act" altitude. The key being "act." You should pull red by the time you see 2500. And you should be checking your altimeter every 5 seconds or so when stuff is not going right, especially.

I had my first cutaway after a hard opening and broken steering lines on CAT C1. I had enough time to think and be sure about what was going on and decided my "hard deck" for that jump was 3000 when I was at 3500 with a canopy I couldn't flare with both toggles and couldn't turn right with toggles. Worked out fine.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[davelepka 4]

Just bumping this back up to the top for the hell of it. Looks like there might have been another incident or two where busting a hard deck with a low cutaway might have been a factor, so it seemed like a good time for a little bump.

Beyond that, there's been a lot of activity in the incidents forum in the last week/couple days. With the big holiday weekend, and good June weather rolling in, jump numbers should be up, and so should everyone's awareness levels in terms of safety, gear checks, and all around being careful. It's easy to get caught up in the fast pace of a busy DZ and a ticking clock when the sun is going down and ready to end the fun, but just remember to slow down, take a deep breath, and think about all the choices you're making before you actually make them.

Did you take your time, and pack carefully? Did you check ALL of your gear before gearing up? Did you plan the dive the right way, to include a dirt dive with everyone involved and a clear and direct discussion of break off and pull altitudes? Have you reviewed the load and what other jumpers/groups are doing to ensure correct exit orders and group separation? Have you checked the winds/weather to make sure they're within your abilities and that you have a solid flight plan in mind? Have you mentally and physically reviewed your EPs and hard decks?

Have done all of the above twice?

Before every jump?

Can you think of a good reason not to?

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Can you think of a good reason not to?

Not a one!

Thanks Dave!!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[popsjumper 2]

davelepka

Can you think of a good reason not to?

Oooo...there's a name for this type of loaded question but I can't think of it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dpreguy 14]

What is "Flat fly?" Never heard of that term.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

dpreguy

What is "Flat fly?" Never heard of that term.

Belly flying. As in "Flat on your stomach."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo