Hard decks, let's review....

[Ron 10]

Quote

And now I know people are going to give it to me about the timings, and that you can have timelapse etc. But, it is not that easy keeping an eye on your alti when you are spinning, and most of us know out of experience how long is 3sec and 10sec.

Every dead person that cut away at ~300 feet all thought they had the time to get a reserve.

You cannot trust 'time', you can kinda trust your eyes, and you can mostly trust an Alti.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jumpinjackflsh 0]

Timely post. This last week has been tough to say the least.

I just got my first audible. A protrack. I put it in my helmet and set first alarm to 5500, for breakoff at 5, second for tossing at 4 and last alarm for hard deck at 2.

My deployments have been consistently putting me under canopy at 3/3100.

My thoughts being, if what opens doesn't work out, I've got to chop and get a reserve out between 3 and 2. Period.

If there is anything wrong with this logic please let me know. As a B licensed skydiver I know I can throw at 3, but with a snivel of about 8-900 feet I don't like the thought of being in the same position at 2, now having to make the decision to go silver, then under a reserve at 1, etc...

That said, I like throwing at 4.


Jack

[popsjumper 2]

The general rule for break-off is 1500-2000ft above pull altitude.
Note key word 'general'.
The experience levels, complexity and/or special activity of the jump will alter break-off/pull altitudes.

From the SIM:

Chapter 4, Category H, A

6. Breaking off and tracking
a. Plan break-off altitude high enough for the jumper
with the least experience to track to a safe distance
from the formation, at least 100 feet for
groups of five or fewer (minimum distance
required for A-license check dive).
b. breakoff
(1) The minimum breakoff altitude recommendations
contained in the section on Group
Freefall in this manual apply to very experienced
formation skydivers jumping at a
familiar location, using familiar equipment,
and jumping with familiar people.
(2) If any of these conditions are not met, add
500-1,000 feet to your planned breakoff.


Section 6-1 C:

1. The minimum breakoff altitude should be—
a. for groups of five or fewer, at least 1,500 feet
higher than the highest planned deployment
altitude in the group (not counting one
camera flyer)
b. for groups of six or more, at least 2,000 feet
higher than the highest planned deployment
altitude in the group (not counting a signaling
deployment or camera flyers)
c. higher than these recommendations for the
following:
(1) groups with one or more jumpers of lower
experience
(2) jumpers with slower-opening or faster-flying
canopies
(3) jumpers engaging in freefall activities that
involve a fall rate faster than belly to earth
terminal velocity
(4) jumps involving props, toys, or other special
equipment, (signs, banners, smoke, flags,
hoops, tubes, items released in freefall, etc.)
(5) jumps taking place over an unfamiliar landing
area or in case of an off-field landing (bad
spot recognized in freefall
(6) other special considerations


I am going to assume you have read, learned and plan to abide by the warnings about 'device dependency'.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Every dead person that cut away at ~300 feet all thought they had the time to get a reserve.

You cannot trust 'time', you can kinda trust your eyes, and you can mostly trust an Alti.

Thank you, Ron.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,447]

Quote

You cannot trust 'time', you can kinda trust your eyes, and you can mostly trust an Alti.

For many people, particularly those who mostly rely on instruments, by the time they can trust their eyes (i.e. ground rush), it might well be too late.

Know where you are when you're starting (i.e. planned breakoff, planned pull, actual pull), and take action quickly after that.

It's part of why I don't like a 1000' snivel. It's just too easy to have it slide to a 1500' snivel or even longer, and that altitude is all coming out of the basement...

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

I wonder how many of these low cutaway fatalities came as a result of them looking at the ground and thinking, "I've got enough room to do this."?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jumpinjackflsh 0]

Thanks Pops!

Yeah, very relevant. My audible has been a nice added accessory but I am still checking my altimeter regularly during the dive and at break off. Damn good point, I am avoiding "waiting" for an alarm.

Breakoff at five has been the rule for Cessna jumping at my dz with 2 - 4 people. However per the general rule for pulling I may need to add 500'.

Good stuff.

One of the things I was curious about as well, per Dave's post is where are most people deploying nowadays? Most everyone on here has chimed in in the last month or so regarding "pulling higher"... I noticed a lot of people I've seen are throwing around four but, that's a handful of relative newbies that I jump with.



Thanks,

Jack

[jumpinjackflsh 0]

I've had the same thought. With only a hundred and some change on jumps I've been working really hard at break off, and pull time to look and develop my sight picture. Checking altimeter and the scenery to build in that view.

I'm assuming it takes a lot of jumps and awareness to get that picture locked in though I do feel like i'm getting better at it.

I've been low, real low, three times. I don't ever want to be again. Especially not with a malfunction. It was scary enough to be that low with a good canopy. Which in my estimation was luck, not skill.

[popsjumper 2]

Pull altitude is dependent:
- what is the experience level of those you are jumping with.
- what is your own personal comfort level
- what type of activity are you doing
- how many are in that group skydive.

There's no set rule like, everybody pull a 4 no matter what you are doing.

In the case you mentioned, yeah, a 'generally accepted' altitude comes about because of your limitations on how many are in the Cessna (limited group size) and the experienced people jumping with you are adjusting their pull time to accommodate the youngsters.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

jumpinjackflsh

I've had the same thought. With only a hundred and some change on jumps I've been working really hard at break off, and pull time to look and develop my sight picture. Checking altimeter and the scenery to build in that view.

I'm assuming it takes a lot of jumps and awareness to get that picture locked in though I do feel like i'm getting better at it.

WoooHoooo! Excellent! Keep at it. Yes, you get better with practice.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[potatoman 0]

Ron

Quote

And now I know people are going to give it to me about the timings, and that you can have timelapse etc. But, it is not that easy keeping an eye on your alti when you are spinning, and most of us know out of experience how long is 3sec and 10sec.

Every dead person that cut away at ~300 feet all thought they had the time to get a reserve.

You cannot trust 'time', you can kinda trust your eyes, and you can mostly trust an Alti.

Think you understood my statement wrong.
I wrote: "Open Altitude at 3500 (Deployment)
Now, high speed mal, 3sec, then action reserve. "

This means:
I know how high I am to start with
I deploy at that alt
In the event of high speed mal, I would need to action EP after 3 sec. This means I am still well above 1500Ft, and we all know that once things go wrong, your 3 sec will become 2sec.

Only to use time as a factor from a KNOWN deployment alt, not when you are already low.

This is even tought to S/L students. They have nothing more than their heads/eyes to determine height. Once out the door, count to 5 and then check, if nothing action.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Only to use time as a factor from a KNOWN deployment alt, not when you are already low.

This is even tought to S/L students. They have nothing more than their heads/eyes to determine height. Once out the door, count to 5 and then check, if nothing action.

Would you explain why it's done that way?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 10]

Quote

Only to use time as a factor from a KNOWN deployment alt, not when you are already low.

You think all of the dead skydivers that rode line stretch in thought they were low, or do you think they thought had enough time?

You keep mentioning counting, but you are forgetting that time distortion happens when all hell breaks loose. Without a real instrument to measure time.... It is unreliable. It is like the pilot who thinks he can fly striaight and level in clouds by 'feel', or the Acro pilot that claims to be able to fly G's without a G-meter.

In good situations, using time without a watch is questionable. When all hell breaks loose it becomes even less reliable.

As for first jump static line students... Yes, they are taught that. They are also taught to hang from a strut and arch... That does not make it a best practice, they quickly move on to better methods.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,447]

Well I know why they taught me that way back in the stone age. I didn't have an altimeter or a stopwatch, and they wanted me to remember, so it was all rote -- arch-thousand 2-thousand 3-thousand 4-thousand 5-thousand look-thousand reach-thousand pull (at least I think it was 5). I must have practiced it a hundred times (long FJC )

Pretty much no matter how fast or slow I counted, if the canopy was going to come it, it would by the time I got to pull, or I'd pull before I bounced.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[potatoman 0]

It is my way.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[LSD3rd 12]

Wouldn't a malfunctioning 107 or smaller parachute compared to a Sabre 170, lose more alt quicker in a malfunction. It would seem less material over your head, less drag faster you reach your decision alt.

Daniel Johnson

[pchapman 279]

Hi popsjumper,
I know you're a fan of looking at the alti and not using "time".

But one still can get into problems: So a guy with the mal does go check his alti and finds he still has plenty of altitude to mess with his mal to try to clear it. He plans to give it 5 seconds before the next alti check. He still has to have a decent appreciation for time or his perception of 5 seconds might be totally off, and do the next check too late.

So I get what you're saying about confirming your altitude with the alti -- it's a great tool that shouldn't be forgotten in the heat of an emergency -- but I'll argue that you still need to use a sense of time. If you get distracted or don't perceive it properly, relative to the speed of descent of your mal, you still can get in trouble.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Well I know why they taught me that way back in the stone age. I didn't have an altimeter or a stopwatch, and they wanted me to remember, so it was all rote -- arch-thousand 2-thousand 3-thousand 4-thousand 5-thousand look-thousand reach-thousand pull (at least I think it was 5). I must have practiced it a hundred times (long FJC )

Same for me, Z-hills. I was too young and dumb to even ask for one. IIRC, Hoop was too cheap to provide them for youngsters.
j/k, Hoop.


Seeing what others had mounted on their reserve and hearing stories of broken teeth and such, I wasn't really thrilled when they finally gave me one....well after being out on my own.

Quote

Pretty much no matter how fast or slow I counted, if the canopy was going to come it, it would by the time I got to pull, or I'd pull before I bounced.

Are you saying you may have counted slowly?
My ten-second delay: "1, 2, TEN! AAAAARGH!"


I was soooo happy to see that ragged-out, masking taped, patched up T10!

I eventually got ever it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,447]

Quote

Are you saying you may have counted slowly?
My ten-second delay: "1, 2, TEN! AAAAARGH!"

I have no idea about how fast I counted, because I have no memory of counting -- just jumping off, and then an open lo-po (blue and yellow). Apparently I counted loud enough to be heard on the ground , so all that training must have stuck somehow.

Our club didn't have altimeters -- once I got to 15-second delays, I had to buy my own, or stay on 10's. I still have (and use) that altimeter.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

Peter, I have no intent to start another argument with you but your example shows the time factor as being the gotchya.

"He plans to give it 5 seconds before the next alti check."

Whenever I'm dealing with a fixable mal, there are only a couple of very specific situations where I've got my altimeter hand down below my chin out of direct eyesight. (Stuck right-side toggle being one of them.)

My plan, and action, has always been if that situation arises, make double sure you monitor the altimeter. Everything else it's right there on the hand taking up toggles or risers...right in front of my face.

Maybe that explains part of why I'm such a proponent of altitude awareness in emergency situations....that and too many people I know have died from an apparent loss of awareness.

How else do you explain a cut at 200ft?
I dunno.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pchapman 279]

popsjumper

How else do you explain a cut at 200ft?
I dunno.

Took too much time, or too much altitude. Take your pick.