When should low-number jumpers speak up about safety issues?

[rehmwa 2]

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Scenario 1, for sure. Could have jumped lower - chose not to. Really a matter of preference. It was just good to know that there was no flack about it - even though would have done the same either way.
If was emergency, out the door no problem -

OK, just making sure. It's important.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[LuvToFly 0]

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Scenario 1, for sure. Could have jumped lower - chose not to. Really a matter of preference. It was just good to know that there was no flack about it - even though would have done the same either way.
If was emergency, out the door no problem -

OK, just making sure. It's important.

Agreed!

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[Airman1270 0]

I've told this before, but it it SOOOO relevant to this thread...

Incident 1) 20 years ago, had recently graduated from the student program at a far-away DZ and was making my first few jumps at a "private club" DZ near my home. Though I was a bit of a pest, these guys were great and did much to help me.

I asked for a pin check from a guy who held an instructor rating. He said if I was going to jump there I needed to learn to take care of myself. (I'm sure he was trying to help me become more confident and self-sufficient, but I had already seen other things that made me nervous and I didn't know how to handle this.)

I discreetly sent a brief note to USPA explaining the situation and asking advice. (I did not identify any individual nor the DZ.) I never received a reply, and assumed my question wasn't worthy of anybody's time and let it go.

Two months later my letter was printed in PARACHUTIST. This got me banned for life.

Incident 2) A few years later, at another DZ three hours from home, I had my first malfunction, followed by a hard pull on the cutaway, a chop at around 2000', and a hard pull on the reserve. Got open at 400'. Expected praise for keeping my head and saving my life; instead got kicked off the DZ.

Incident 3) Later that year, at yet another DZ, we reached 1900' before hitting the cloud bottoms. Two guys jumped, another lady & I rode down. While standing around afterward, I blurted out the exit altitude without thinking. The two guys got reprimanded. I apologized to them for my carelessness, and worried that I was continuing to make myself unpopular at every DZ within a day's drive of my home. (This did not happen, but I was getting real paranoid about such things at the time.)

Incident 4) While visiting a large DZ a few years ago, I did a solo following three groups involved in an RW camp. After waiting ten seconds, I exited and went into a dive. I saw the last group and tracked over toward them, stopping about 100' out, and watched. I knew they weren't expecting me to be there, so I pulled before they reached their break-off altitude.

I had removed myself from their sky before they started tracking, and there was no danger of a collision. However, one lady spent the rest of the afternoon freaking out about it. According to her, I just fell out the door on their heels and ended up in their space without any clue as to how I got there.

I concede that, as a visitor, they didn't know me and had valid reason to wonder who I was and what I was doing there. I caused a distraction, and most likely interfered with their dive flow. In hindsight, I shouldn't have done that and won't do it again without first talking about it beforehand.

But there was never any threat to anyone's safety, and I didn't appreciate being insulted and talked down to by someone who was in diapers when I made my first jump. I visited that DZ two years later and she was still telling people I almost got her killed. Sigh...

But she sure is cute, though.

Final Incident) A few weeks back, while preparing to board the plane, one of the younger guys (at this point, most of them are younger) suddenly grabbed my chest strap and pulled hard. He said he was just making sure. I thanked him and smiled.

No shit, there I was...

Cheers,
Jon

[tbrown 26]

This place was a student S/L "mill" before "tandem mills" existed. Back when all their student rigs were cheapos (round military surplus canopies), which don't give the softest landings, they used to teach S/L first jump course students, "We teach the standup landing method...", which translated to: they only taught the students to keep their feet and knees together at landing, but unlike most other DZ's, they never taught them how to do a PLF, or even mentioned it.

[Andy9o8 2]

When I took my FJC there in '75, I specifically remember my FJI (you know the 2 who were doing it back then; you probably had one of them) telling us that they taught "the stand-up landing method there". There was absolutely no teaching or even mention of PLF, at all, of that I'm certain. Yes, the student gear was decent for the time (especially when they remembered to give you the rigs with the Sentinel and the Stevens system); my only reason for mentioning the military surplus canopies (which we all know were universally nicknamed "cheapos") was just to note the fact that they landed hard enough to warrant teaching PLFs to FJC students.

If you don't think they were a "mill", ok, I think you spent more total time there than I did, so I'll defer to your judgment. I was 18 & 19 at the time, so I'm still looking at it through those eyes.

OK, in fairness to the DZO, I do remember hearing about him disciplining jumpers for dumping low, but I also know that he had 4 fatalities there within about 3 or 4 years (which one may or may not think was a lot for a medium-size DZ in the '70s), so I guess he was a little touchy about it. (ROFL - yeah, I heard at least one "wife" story, too...something about a gun I think...sheesh...). But the shitty attitude he and some of the up-timers had toward novices that I recounted was absolutely there, and as I told you in PM, I think it probably contributed to driving away some novices who might otherwise have stayed with the sport. I also strongly suspect that it contributed to that fatality. All history has lessons that last a long time; so after 29 years, what's to be done about it? What we're doing now - talking about it and hoping it just might help the people in the sport today.

I can only echo what you say: Students, don't let anyone intimidate you out of watching out for safety. I'm heartened by the responses the up-timers who've responded to this thread have had, and I hope all the other up-timers (and those who soon will be) will keep this in mind, too.

Blue skies, Nick.

[Plover 0]

Whenever they're sure they're correct.