MadDog54 0 #1 April 23, 2013 I will acknowledge that this may be a super stupid question. I have a Vector 3 now and I really like it. I would like to order another one, when i buy i new container but the lead time is 40 weeks. Would it be stupid to order one now sized for a 135? I'm on a 190, so that would give me about a year to downsize to a 135 and even if i didn't make it to 135 could cram a 150 into it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #2 April 23, 2013 How many jumps do you have? How frequently are you jumping? What happens if you get injured or unable to jump for a part of that 40 weeks? Why do you want to downsize anyway?"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinjackflsh 0 #3 April 23, 2013 I fly a 190 as well... If you read the threads on here at all I'd have to say, you know your profile doesn't indicate how many jumps you have etc... Which means giving input isn't easy... Even though, if you have a thousand jumps, me with my pitiful 110, I'd say, downsizing from a 190 to a 135 or even a 150 is a huge jump. All of the previous knowledge gathered by those in the support suggest downsizing in manageable increments that allow you to account for changes in flight characteristics, etc... I bought my 190 and flew it for my first licensed jump after approval from my instructors. I have to say, moving from a Manta 230 to the 190 was a hell of an eye opener and not a jump I'd make again. I survived it, and flew fine, but it took a bit to deal with the differences. Given that, again coming from a newbie perspective, why would you want to take such a big step? Who knows, you could be way more experienced then me but even so, that's a hell of a difference in wing loading... Peace, Jack P.S. My next downsize will most likely be at 200 jumps to a 170. It is conservative but I've learned enough at this stage about myself to know I'd rather eat the elephant one bite at a time... Edited to add: Fill out your profile. This will give you the best answers to questions from qualified individuals and will reduce the verbal beatings. As a skydiver you know, it's all about numbers and experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MadDog54 0 #4 April 23, 2013 I just did my 120th jump last weekend and I've been doing about 6-10 jumps a week. I want to downsize because canopy flight is fun (its one of my favorite parts about the jump) and I want to fly higher performance canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinjackflsh 0 #5 April 23, 2013 I started to respond by posting all kinds of links here like this one.... [url]http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html Though at 126 jumps I'm sure you've learned a lot and have spoke with your jump masters / wise ones at your dz and have already received some kind of input? In addition, this website is FULL of information regarding downsizing, too fast, and the real life results of what happens if you push past your abilities (search Sangi)... I'm looking forward to flying a faster canopy as well and enjoy that portion just as much. However, as you'll quickly learn, well, look around, the answers are there. Jack Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #6 April 23, 2013 Sounds like a bit much of a downsize to me. Vector 3 is a great rig. (Get the skyhook). The wait may be long, but when it arrives you may not be ready to downsize, but that won't matter because you will WANT to downsize. Take your time and make sure you can do the entire B license card before you downsize at each level. I am pretty conservative and I can tell you from experience, the ground is very unforgiving. You need to master the canopy you are flying before you downsize. The most deaths and injuries in our sport occur under perfectly good canopies flown, let's say, imperfectly.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
babz 0 #7 April 23, 2013 Double check with UPT but I believe they will change the container size that you've ordered as long as they haven't made it yet (a friend of mine decided to go for a v308 rather than the v310 and they were OK with changing it) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GooniesKid 0 #8 April 23, 2013 Quote I will acknowledge that this may be a super stupid question. I have a Vector 3 now and I really like it. I would like to order another one, when i buy i new container but the lead time is 40 weeks. Would it be stupid to order one now sized for a 135? I'm on a 190, so that would give me about a year to downsize to a 135 and even if i didn't make it to 135 could cram a 150 into it. 40 weeks? what the hell? UPT only hired 1 dude to manufacturer rigs? Can anyone from UPT address this 40 week lead time? I mean c'mon, that rig better have a life time warranty for a 40 week lead time or perhaps when you get the new rig have a case of beer packed in the container. 40 weeks is almost waiting for a baby to be born (or something like that) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #9 April 23, 2013 I actually asked this question, in the factory, in person, like in the last few days,... "Our customers have no issue waiting for the best,..." They do have a few Camo Rigs for basically immediate shipment left,... not sure of sizes available. I think someone should point out the stupidity of making the statment about "CRAMMING" an oversized canopy into a rig, it is precisly why UPT won't engage with Mr. Sherman about a very real issue that is causing fatals each year! And that is once again you users of the equipment make these stupid remarks again and again, and the manufacturer's can't and are unable to control what the user does after it leaves the factory. You are an ass if you put both a full fitting reserve and main in a containeer! Your just ignorant if you put in even a larger than reccommended, I'm contiually amazed by this behavior????But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waveoff5500 0 #10 April 23, 2013 hey man, first off v3's are a really nice rig if you size them right. they suddenly become the most uncomfortable rig when you put canopies that are too big in them. downsizing isnt a constant, it happens at different rates for different people. going from a 190 to a 135 in 1 year is quiet a big leap. if you truly want to take canopy flight further then you have to respect the details of it that take thousands of jumps to master. sure small canopies are fast and fun, but they take a lot more attention to control and when things go wrong everything happens much much faster. in the long run if you downsize too quickly youre going to short change yourself from enjoying solid canopy flight that youve built up over a reasonable progression. my advice would to either buy a used transitional rig that will get you down from a 170 to a 135 and jump that while practicing consistent patterns, accuracy and all modes of flight with each downsize you do when you get to the 135 youll not only have gained a set of preferences that you dont have not, but youll also be able to order a container for the right size canopies that will last a long time (120 - ?? cross braced). its easy to say you want to jump high performance canopies but it takes patience and an attitude thats geared towards detail. either way good luck and keep up the respect for canopy flight"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not" 1653 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #11 April 23, 2013 Part of it is demand, part of it was their recent construction of a new manufacturing facility. Their lead time for new rigs has already dropped down to ~36 weeks (it was 46 when I ordered) and will drop more. Does it suck? Sure does, but I'm willing to wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,366 #12 April 23, 2013 Hi excaza, Quotetheir recent construction of a new manufacturing facility. I had a very short discussion with Bill in Daytona. I asked him if they were completely in their new location. He said that they were & that their orders had increased by 50% with the move. Just a thought on this issue, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #13 April 23, 2013 Yes, that was the intended point of my post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnay 0 #14 April 23, 2013 QuoteI actually asked this question, in the factory, in person, like in the last few days,... "Our customers have no issue waiting for the best,..." If only they knew how many people are not their customers because of the wait time.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GooniesKid 0 #15 April 23, 2013 QuoteQuoteI actually asked this question, in the factory, in person, like in the last few days,... "Our customers have no issue waiting for the best,..." If only they knew how many people are not their customers because of the wait time.. Seriously man,,i'm with you on this! 40 weeks is ridiculous..a lamborghini can be custom built in 6 months (and the lamborghini probably has 10000 more moving parts than a container) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #16 April 23, 2013 Quote Quote Quote I actually asked this question, in the factory, in person, like in the last few days,... "Our customers have no issue waiting for the best,..." If only they knew how many people are not their customers because of the wait time.. Seriously man,,i'm with you on this! 40 weeks is ridiculous..a lamborghini can be custom built in 6 months (and the lamborghini probably has 10000 more moving parts than a container) I won a certificate last year for a discount on a Vector. I ultimately decided against buying because I couldn't justify spending money on a new container when I already have one that's nearly brand-new and a backup that's used but still in excellent shape. However, the lead time was also a consideration, especially when I realized that I could get pregnant and create human life in less time than they'd deliver me a rig. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GooniesKid 0 #17 April 23, 2013 Quote Quote Quote Quote I actually asked this question, in the factory, in person, like in the last few days,... "Our customers have no issue waiting for the best,..." If only they knew how many people are not their customers because of the wait time.. Seriously man,,i'm with you on this! 40 weeks is ridiculous..a lamborghini can be custom built in 6 months (and the lamborghini probably has 10000 more moving parts than a container) I won a certificate last year for a discount on a Vector. I ultimately decided against buying because I couldn't justify spending money on a new container when I already have one that's nearly brand-new and a backup that's used but still in excellent shape. However, the lead time was also a consideration, especially when I realized that I could get pregnant and create human life in less time than they'd deliver me a rig. Exactly! I mean in 40 weeks things can change for most people. That slogan "our customers are willing to wait" is a huge cop-out! I bet ya that most of UPT's "customers" are the one's they sponsor anyways. I can also bet you the same dudes that work at UPT would hate to wait 40 weeks for their rig. This thread should really be about "What Can Be Built, Accomplished, or Erected Faster Than A Rig From UPT" Christ, can anyone who works at UPT chime in on this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #18 April 23, 2013 QuoteChrist, can anyone who works at UPT chime in on this? What exactly are you looking to get out of them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #19 April 23, 2013 > I bet ya that most of UPT's "customers" are the one's they sponsor anyways. Most of their customers are probably military, who pay a LOT better than civilians. I would point out that you can get just about any gear you want if you pay enough for it. I've gotten canopies in a week and jumpsuits in 3 days from very motivated manufacturers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #20 April 23, 2013 Here's an answer from 5 years ago to the same question: QuoteWe are currently working on tripling our production facility size, unfortunately, building the addition, and hiring and training employees takes time. Our military orders do not slow down our sport orders, as they are made on an entirely different line with separate employees and machines. There is also something to be said about demand when a company can make you a custom made rig in 2-3 weeks. We are not scheduling delivery for the end of November out of spite; it is just that that is how long the line is to get a custom Vector 3. When you go to the amusement park, you can get on the Ferris Wheel in no time, but if you want to ride the best roller coaster, with all the fancy loops and turns, you usually have to wait in line for a while. We are working hard to reduce out lead times, but these things take time. We appreciate the fact that the orders keep coming in regardless of our 20+ week lead times, and I cannot wait for the day when the expansion is complete and fully staffed and I can start quoting people 8-12 weeks again. Mark Klingelhoefer United Parachute Technologies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GooniesKid 0 #21 April 23, 2013 QuoteQuoteChrist, can anyone who works at UPT chime in on this? What exactly are you looking to get out of them? Well sir, i would like to get out from them a few things. 1. Why do they deserve to still be in business for a 40 week lead time? 2. Why should a customer consider their business when said customer can get a different rig with more or less the same "features" at a fraction of UPT's lead time? 3. What is a customer's incentive to purchase a rig with a 40 week lead time? Life time guarantee? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #22 April 23, 2013 I don't understand why you're treating this like they're doing this out of spite. Their lead time is so long because that's how many rigs they have to build. If you don't want to wait, then don't buy it. They're well aware that long lead times drive away business. Throwing a tantrum isn't going to fix it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GooniesKid 0 #23 April 23, 2013 Quote I don't understand why you're treating this like they're doing this out of spite. you wanna know why?? huh?!!! Because i ordered a custom rig from them just last week! And i want my rig That's all i want. And all i got was this piece of receipt paper that basically says "we took 7 grand off your checking account..and you have nothing to hold..muuhahahah". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #24 April 23, 2013 Quote 1. Why do they deserve to still be in business for a 40 week lead time? 2. Why should a customer consider their business when said customer can get a different rig with more or less the same "features" at a fraction of UPT's lead time? 3. What is a customer's incentive to purchase a rig with a 40 week lead time? Life time guarantee? The tone of your questions (especially #1) implies that UPT owes you something. Fact is that the current lead time hasn't deterred at least some set of customers, perhaps a large enough set of customers that it allows UPT to meet its business goals. UPT can run its business any way it chooses, and they don't owe you (or me, or anyone) an explanation of that decision. Some potential customers may decide that they don't want to wait 40 weeks for a UPT product and will take their business elsewhere. You chose to do business with UPT knowing that the lead time was 40 weeks (and if you didn't know that before you wrote that check, well, shame on you, since that's not exactly difficult information to come by). UPT has the right (one could say they "deserve" it) to decide if they wish to increase production capacity with the goal of decreasing lead time. Or not."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #25 April 23, 2013 Quote you wanna know why?? huh?!!! Because i ordered a custom rig from them just last week! I ordered a rig from them in October, I'm no more entitled than you are to complain. Quote And i want my rig That's all i want. We all do. Quote And all i got was this piece of receipt paper that basically says "we took 7 grand off your checking account..and you have nothing to hold..muuhahahah". You made your purchase fully knowing (I hope) the lead time for the product. You already said, and I agree, that there are plenty of great alternatives, including used gear. You could have chosen any of them. Why on Earth did you pay up front anyway? They only ask for a deposit, which would leave you free to investigate used gear while you wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
