Andy9o8 2 #26 April 29, 2013 Quote...so what is the worst advice a fellow skydiver ever gave you? "I don't care if she has man hands; I'm telling you that's a chick." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #27 April 29, 2013 QuoteOnce the winds crossed 25mph, all loads were stood down anyway, and high winds/low jump number warnings were given over the PA system when winds went beyond AFF-allowable limits. SkyDance actually puts students & rental gear on a wind hold at the same time. Keeps the post-AFF students down (which I think is really the dropzone's responsibility), and it keeps the rental gear safe (and by extension, keeps at least some of the freshly-licensed safer while they build up their own judgment to know better). Just an alternative to consider. (BTW, for all the noobs reading, a student/rental gear wind hold is usually when I, with 1000+ jumps, start to think seriously about sitting down, too, depending on wind direction and gustiness)."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #28 April 29, 2013 QuoteQuoteI waited until the winds had calmed somewhat before I went up. You should have waited until the winds calmed a lot. I hope that is what you really meant. I waited until they were down to about 20 knots (24-25mph). The limit they have for A-licence at my DZ is 25 knots. I felt that at 20 knots I could move forward under the chute, and I was right. The downwind leg was super-fast, and I made very slow progress on base and final, but I made progress. I now know my personal wind limit for that canopy. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #29 April 29, 2013 Quote I'll assume you were at Skydive Elsinore? Once the winds crossed 25mph, all loads were stood down anyway, and high winds/low jump number warnings were given over the PA system when winds went beyond AFF-allowable limits. It's good to follow those warnings and remove yourself from manifest. You would have been likely stood down anyway. The WS School stood down all afternoon, because the uppers were cranking at 65. This is a good time to hang out in the picnic area, talking to experienced jumpers about this n' that. Advice; Stand down. Grab an instructor at the school, ask his/her advice. Find me, Lob, Lelo; ask our advice. Stay well clear of buildings, packing area, plan on landing well out where there are no obstacles or features that could cause turbulence (the north fields are great, as they are just plain ole' 'flat.' Damnit Spot, you know I can't jump at Elsinore all the time, so stop rubbing it in! I was at my NEW home DZ, the Tokyo Skydiving Club. Unfortunately, you, Lelo and Lob were unavailable there. They don't have that great Elsinore weather, either, so they can't afford to be so picky about the winds. Maximum winds allowable for any load is (IIRC) 30 knots (36mph). "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #30 April 29, 2013 > I felt that at 20 knots I could move forward under the chute, and I was right. I would recommend that you should not set your wind limit by "what speed I can still get forward penetration." There's a lot more to wind limits than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #31 April 29, 2013 Quote> I felt that at 20 knots I could move forward under the chute, and I was right. I would recommend that you should not set your wind limit by "what speed I can still get forward penetration." There's a lot more to wind limits than that. Please elaborate on that. I know you're one of the respectable safety guys around here, so I'd be interested in what you have to say about it. I didn't write it, but both instructors on duty told me to go at that point. The knew I'd been waiting all day for the winds to calm, and I received a literal thumbs up. What else should I be thinking about in these cases? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #32 April 29, 2013 Quote Quote ...so what is the worst advice a fellow skydiver ever gave you? I've heard some gems over the years. Most of the bad advice I've heard given to other jumpers starts off like this: I was reading on dropzone.com... No, "I read on rec.skydiving...." was worse! one student used to bring out the print outs.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #33 April 29, 2013 Quote What else should I be thinking about in these cases? I know you asked Bill, but I'm the original "wind wuss" and will chime in with what I look for. 1) Wind speed. I typically try not to go over 20 MPH, regardless of any other circumstances. 2) Wind gusts. What's the differential between the high/low winds? More than a few MPH and I'm watching very carefully because that tends to create some weird air. 3) Wind direction part 1. Is the wind coming over obstacles that can create turbulence well into the landing area? 4) Wind direction part 2. Is the wind direction fairly consistent? If it's changing frequently, it can create some weird air and/or put me in a position where I'm setting up to land into a steady wind and end up landing into a steady crosswind or steady downwind. 5) Observations part 1. When I watch other people land, what are their canopies doing? Are they coming in nice and smooth, or are they buffeting? Are cells even collapsing? Are people who are normally smooth landers having hard / weird landings? 6) Observations Part 2. Do I see any evidence of turbulent air, such as dust devils? 7) Other known quantities. Does this dropzone always get weird winds at a certain time of day or a certain time of year? Does the weather forecast say a storm's brewing? 8) Who's sitting down? Last but definitely not least, pay attention to who is jumping and who is sitting down. If most of the people on the jump are working jumpers (tandems & videographers) and guys with under a few hundred jumps, look around for the rest of the folks. Chances are they'll be hanging out in a comfy chair by the landing area, watching other people get "experience." Go hang out with them for a while. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #34 April 29, 2013 >What else should I be thinking about in these cases? A few things: 1) What level of penetration are you comfortable with? An area with few outs at a DZ with not-great spots mean you would need a lot of penetration. With lots of outs and good spots you have more flexibility. This goes for main AND reserve. 2) How comfortable would you be landing downwind in these winds? If the answer is "I'd have to do a good PLF and I'd probably ruin my jumpsuit" then maybe you're OK. If the answer is "I'd break my neck" then the winds are too high for you. Because you will have to, at some point, land downwind. And again this goes for main AND reserve. 3) Does the wind strength/direction mean lots of turbulence? A good rule of thumb is to stay 10-20x the height away from any obstacle i.e. stay 600 feet away from a 30 foot tree. However this isn't always true; there are some directions where the wind is just always nasty at some DZ's. 4) Is the wind likely to change? Aviation forecasts are good indicators of wind, and if there's a front coming through, there's pretty much a guarantee that the winds will change soon. Nearby thunderstorms are another good indications. Also some DZ's just always have shifty winds at some points during the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #35 April 30, 2013 Thanks BillVon and NWFlyer for your comments. I'll try to think about it more thoroughly next time. You're right that if I had been forced to land downwind, I probably would have been in trouble. It's hard to say, having not done that before, but I'm not willing to intentionally put myself in that position to experiment. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
milehigheric 0 #36 April 30, 2013 Our GPS (which displays ground speed) was doing what technology does best and not working on one jump last weekend. I asked what separation had been like on the past loads and got a quick crash course on the 45 degree rule from a very experienced jumper. I was surprised, I genuinely thought this concept was dead! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #37 April 30, 2013 QuoteOur GPS (which displays ground speed) was doing what technology does best and not working on one jump last weekend. I asked what separation had been like on the past loads and got a quick crash course on the 45 degree rule from a very experienced jumper. I was surprised, I genuinely thought this concept was dead! What's with the 45-degree rule? I know what it is, but what is the problem and why is it dead? I was just taught it at Elsinore last month. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #38 April 30, 2013 Quote Quote Our GPS (which displays ground speed) was doing what technology does best and not working on one jump last weekend. I asked what separation had been like on the past loads and got a quick crash course on the 45 degree rule from a very experienced jumper. I was surprised, I genuinely thought this concept was dead! What's with the 45-degree rule? I know what it is, but what is the problem and why is it dead? The 45 degree rule does not work! And everybody should know this. Quote I was just taught it at Elsinore last month. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #39 April 30, 2013 Quote Quote What's with the 45-degree rule? I know what it is, but what is the problem and why is it dead? The 45 degree rule does not work! And everybody should know this. Quote I was just taught it at Elsinore last month. You know, I actually questioned my instructor on this one when she said it, because I couldn't figure out how it would work. Intuitively I thought that it was weird and couldn't understand how it would get to a 45-degree angle. I was kjnda shot down and it was explained to me how it works, but I still didn't get it. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
